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sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1400 on: April 28, 2021, 06:31:04 AM »
[Satire -- duffelblog rivals onion here]

duffelblog: Taliban ponders budget after US retreat

“The United States has either advertently or inadvertently provided the majority of our funding since we went public back in the ‘90s,”

“But unfortunately those days are coming to an end."

"we just got overconfident and thought we could ride this gravy train indefinitely."

" “My paycheck and the hundreds of other paychecks I skim off the top have been coming from some shadowy quasi-military American-funded organization since at least 2008,” said Ibrihim Sediqui, a Helmand-based Taliban cell leader and drug lord who also serves as district chief of police.  "

“If the American dollars go away completely, there’ll be nothing left for me to embezzle.”

" Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin. “They did more for our defense budget than most mid-tier dictators and global terrorist networks ever could" "

“But the old reliables like Russia and China now offer a better way forward to justify our defense budget"

https://www.duffelblog.com/p/taliban-wonders-who-will-inadvertently

sidd

Espen

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1401 on: April 28, 2021, 11:47:51 PM »
And Europe is not with out problems:

And not mentioning the prolonged Covid 19 problems in several countris if not most!

 https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210428-ex-generals-spark-backlash-as-they-warn-of-civil-war-in-france
Have a ice day!

gerontocrat

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1402 on: May 19, 2021, 08:49:58 PM »
On the one hand...
Commitments to renewable nergy.
EV's set to take off big-time.
The moon, Mars, the stars!

On the other hand...
In Texas the Male Chauvinist Pigs (the Republican party) declare war on women.
Voter suppression is supported by the majority of rank and file Republicans.

I wonder which hand will have the greatest impact on "The Condition of The People"?
But do I want to know?

_______________________________________________________________________
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/19/texas-abortion-ban-law-greg-abbott
Texas governor signs extreme six-week abortion ban into law
Senate Bill 8 bars abortion at six weeks with no exception for rape or incest, amounting to a near-total ban

Quote
the Texas version absolves the state from enforcing the law. Instead it allows any private citizen the extraordinary authority to sue an abortion provider – they do not need to be connected to the patient or even reside in the same state, opening up the floodgates to harassing and frivolous civil lawsuits that could shut down clinics statewide.

In fact, any individual can sue anyone who “aids or abets” abortion care or someone who “intends” to help an abortion patient, a breathtakingly wide range of possible people and groups. While those who sue can collect a minimum of $10,000 if they are successful, those unjustly sued cannot recover legal fees.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/19/republicans-are-winning-at-normalizing-voter-suppression
The numbers are grim. Republicans are winning at normalizing voter suppression
Voter ID laws – which are sculpted to make it harder to vote – are wildly popular with voters, according to surveys

Quote
Voter suppression has been around for as long as the republic. Stories of subterfuge and ballot box-stuffing schemes are such a part of American political folklore, there’s an entire book about them. So in one sense, there is nothing particularly novel about Republican politicians’ efforts to rig the vote, or the important revelations that rightwing groups and corporate officials are coordinating state-level campaigns to make it harder to vote.

However, a new nugget of polling data illustrates that something more fundamental has happened: voter suppression is no longer a plot engineered in the shadows and denied in public, for fear of criticism by a population that considers such measures grotesque. Instead, voter suppression is having its coming-out party – because more and more Americans now consider it to be a perfectly legitimate and even laudable campaign tactic.

The data point comes in a new CBS/YouGov survey, buried under the topline finding that almost two-thirds of Republican voters do not consider Joe Biden the legitimate winner of the 2020 election, despite Biden’s electoral college and popular vote victories.

Further down in the survey, pollsters asked GOP voters whether in advance of the 2022 election, they would advise Republican leaders to “tell the public about popular policies and ideas” or instead “push for changes to voting rules”, on the basis that Republicans “will win once those changes are in place”.

Nearly half of Republicans surveyed supported the latter move, with the strongest demographics in support being female Republicans, non-white Republicans and white Republicans with no college degree.

This wouldn’t be so profound if this were a survey only of cynical, campaign-hardened GOP consultants. But here we see that a near-majority of rank-and-file Republican voters have internalized the soulless cynicism of their party’s political class.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1403 on: May 24, 2021, 09:56:23 PM »
Rushing for the doors: Allies retreating faster than the USA

" leaving months ahead of the Sept. 11 deadline set by the Biden administration "

"Dutch troops could be out by sometime in July"

"Troops from Austria, a non-NATO country that joined the coalition at the outset, also expect to be gone by July"

"Portuguese soldiers who protect a base at Kabul’s international airport will pull out by the end of May"

"Troops from Spain, New Zealand and Croatia have already departed"

" German Defense Ministry spokesman David Helmbold told reporters in Berlin that a July 4 pullout date was being considered"

"a Romanian adviser, recently returned home after helping close Kandahar Airfield, which was handed over to the Afghan military in mid-May."

https://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/allies-leaving-rapidly-as-nato-ends-afghanistan-training-mission-1.674183

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1404 on: May 26, 2021, 05:02:10 PM »
I think the biggest problem in the US is the (failed) two-party system that has created the current extreme polarisation (us vs. the enemies). Add a dismal education system and rather large numbers of "Jesus freaks" with a tenuous grasp on reality to start with. Witness ongoing "fake news epidemic" with even reasonable people no longer knowing what is real and what to believe .. one party going full-on delusional worshipping their deranged leader, Q, and the near destruction of democracy.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1405 on: May 26, 2021, 05:59:22 PM »
Quote
I think the biggest problem in the US is the (failed) two-party system that has created the current extreme polarisation (us vs. the enemies).
Where did the two=party system come from? Not the Founding Fathers (at least not directly)...Washington did not even want parties.
Is it the first past the gate elections? how would you solve this?

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1406 on: May 27, 2021, 03:07:57 AM »
I think the biggest problem in the US is the (failed) two-party system that has created the current extreme polarisation (us vs. the enemies). Add a dismal education system and rather large numbers of "Jesus freaks" with a tenuous grasp on reality to start with. Witness ongoing "fake news epidemic" with even reasonable people no longer knowing what is real and what to believe .. one party going full-on delusional worshipping their deranged leader, Q, and the near destruction of democracy.
I struggled with many different responses. Your message deeply angered me. I should not get so worked up about it but I do.

I aspire to be a "Jesus Freak". Jesus teaches me to show love and compassion when others mock and deride my beliefs. That includes my belief in God. That is very hard for me to do because I get so angry when people lump all Christians, a very diverse group, in with such a hate filled group as Trump devotees. I can't think of a single person I have hated more than Trump. Jesus Christ teaches that I should not hate even him but I struggle with that.  Even many Republicans, though not enough in my opinion, do not want to be associated with his brand of evil. Please do not associate the hate that some people have for those around them with Jesus Christ who spent his time teaching people to love everyone.

The Walrus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1407 on: May 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AM »
I think the biggest problem in the US is the (failed) two-party system that has created the current extreme polarisation (us vs. the enemies). Add a dismal education system and rather large numbers of "Jesus freaks" with a tenuous grasp on reality to start with. Witness ongoing "fake news epidemic" with even reasonable people no longer knowing what is real and what to believe .. one party going full-on delusional worshipping their deranged leader, Q, and the near destruction of democracy.
I struggled with many different responses. Your message deeply angered me. I should not get so worked up about it but I do.

I aspire to be a "Jesus Freak". Jesus teaches me to show love and compassion when others mock and deride my beliefs. That includes my belief in God. That is very hard for me to do because I get so angry when people lump all Christians, a very diverse group, in with such a hate filled group as Trump devotees. I can't think of a single person I have hated more than Trump. Jesus Christ teaches that I should not hate even him but I struggle with that.  Even many Republicans, though not enough in my opinion, do not want to be associated with his brand of evil. Please do not associate the hate that some people have for those around them with Jesus Christ who spent his time teaching people to love everyone.

I agree with you.  I find that belief in God comes with a moral sense of right and wrong, that many others do not have.  I was never convinced that Trump was a true believer; he tended to say whatever he felt would gather supporters, truth be damned.  “Jesus freaks” have a much better grasp on truth and reality than non-believers.  Maybe if we had more “Jesus freaks” our country would be less divided.  I can only imagine what Nietzsche would say about modern secularism.

nukefix

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1408 on: May 27, 2021, 04:03:34 PM »
I notice I sounded like I lumped all Christians in the US in a single group. That was not my intention, with the Freaks I was referring to the largely Evangelical (I guess) group of extremist believers that abandoned reason and science (including age of Earth and evolution, and in some cases even believing in Flat Earth), who are waiting for imminent rapture and consider everybody else is a satanist slash working for the devil. These kind of people are not compatible with modern multivalued society.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1409 on: May 27, 2021, 04:10:33 PM »
I agree with you.  I find that belief in God comes with a moral sense of right and wrong, that many others do not have.  I was never convinced that Trump was a true believer; he tended to say whatever he felt would gather supporters, truth be damned.  “Jesus freaks” have a much better grasp on truth and reality than non-believers.  Maybe if we had more “Jesus freaks” our country would be less divided.  I can only imagine what Nietzsche would say about modern secularism.
In the case of moral sense being too radical a believer is also detrimental. If everyone who is not in your group is seen as literally working for the devil, any and all means of opposition and battle are allowed. Why would you compromise with absolute evil? -> not compatible with modern multivalued societies.

And regarding secularism, Europe is vastly more secular than the US and arguably a lot less crazy as the result. Having multi-party systems helps too as the others are not automatically the enemy. Here politics is not usually a completely forbidden discussion topic, since it's possible to disagree without evoking extreme amounts of polarisation.

The Walrus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1410 on: May 27, 2021, 04:52:59 PM »

In the case of moral sense being too radical a believer is also detrimental. If everyone who is not in your group is seen as literally working for the devil, any and all means of opposition and battle are allowed. Why would you compromise with absolute evil? -> not compatible with modern multivalued societies.

And regarding secularism, Europe is vastly more secular than the US and arguably a lot less crazy as the result. Having multi-party systems helps too as the others are not automatically the enemy. Here politics is not usually a completely forbidden discussion topic, since it's possible to disagree without evoking extreme amounts of polarisation.

Your premise about working for the devil is incorrect.  Hence, the following is not meaningful.  There are radicals in every section of society, why would you choose the few in the Christian group to make your statements?  A few radical Republican have made strong anti-Islamic remarks and a few radical Democrats have made strong anti-Semitic remarks, do you consider all Republicans to be anti-Islamic and all Democrats to be anti-Semitic?  I do not believe that secularism and craziness are related in any way.  Secularists can be just as crazy as anyone else.

kassy

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1411 on: May 27, 2021, 05:14:20 PM »
Yes that is one of the more problematic aspects of the current culture. It is almost like there are two completely different political bubbles and it is all about that political fight.

There is so much maintenance backlog to get too.

Does it never bother you (US members) that so much money gets thrown to the military or to the rich while the rest crumbles?
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1412 on: May 27, 2021, 09:04:39 PM »
Quote
Does it never bother you (US members) that so much money gets thrown to the military or to the rich while the rest crumbles?
Yes.  ;D

The Walrus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1413 on: May 27, 2021, 09:13:14 PM »
Yes that is one of the more problematic aspects of the current culture. It is almost like there are two completely different political bubbles and it is all about that political fight.

There is so much maintenance backlog to get too.

Does it never bother you (US members) that so much money gets thrown to the military or to the rich while the rest crumbles?

Responding as a US member, the answer is a definite "yes."  It is not just the military, but the entire mountain of government waste that occurs.  As long as a problem remains, politicians gain clout by throwing piles of money at it in an attempt to win kudos and ultimately, votes.  If they actually solved the problem, then they have nothing more to gain politically.  As long as people continue to receive government money to alleviate their situation, they will continue their support, ignoring completely the fact that their situation remains the unchanged.  This is true whether we are taking about crime, farming, poverty, education, medicine or racial concerns.  Too many people are too eager to support this system, as long as they get their fair share, while the politicians continue to enrich themselves in the process.  Each political party has its own specific needs that it addresses in order to gain support (i.e. votes), and when the opposing party gains power, then tend to undo them in order to throw money at their own pet issues.  This just multiplies the waste and creates a whipsaw effect on the populous. 

Perhaps that is why the American people have voted a candidate from the same party as a retiring president to succeed him just once (Bush) since the Great Depression. 

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1414 on: May 28, 2021, 03:39:30 AM »
I notice I sounded like I lumped all Christians in the US in a single group. That was not my intention, with the Freaks I was referring to the largely Evangelical (I guess) group of extremist believers that abandoned reason and science (including age of Earth and evolution, and in some cases even believing in Flat Earth), who are waiting for imminent rapture and consider everybody else is a satanist slash working for the devil. These kind of people are not compatible with modern multivalued society.
I appreciate this response and the challenge of expressing frustration with some parts of a group without labeling the group as a whole.
To Kassie: Many things about my country bother me. My capacity to change them is small but I do what I can. The size of the US military is a complicated one. I would prefer if we did not need one at all but that is just not possible. All militarys are too big right up to the point where someone else looks at them and decides they are weak enough to attack. Then if they were just a little bit bigger they would be about  the right size because actually engaging in conflict is much more expensive. But confidently making that determination of how big is big enough is difficult and constantly changing.
Putin has made it pretty clear that he wants to take over all of the old soviet states. Sending troops to the border recently was probing how committed the US is to defending those borders. Does it never bother you when people suffer under the oppression of dictators? I know this sounds weird to say when the US came very close to becoming a dictatorship and itself and is still trying to free itself from this influence. Many democracies benifit without fulling paying for their own defense. On the other hand the US does unjustly impose its will on others because of that power. If you want the US military to shrink more than just a modest reduction I think it is fair to insist that you explain which militaries need to grow. Conflict is brewing both with Russia and with China. The US is criticized for the size of it's military right up until it is asked to step in to stop genocide somewhere or other human rights abuses.

The US spends too much on its military and not enough.
Many democracies need to expand there militaries not to fight wars but to prevent them. Democracy does not prevent immoral action but does tend to reduce it. The more centralized power is the more corrupting it is. The more centralized power is the more effective it is at achieving a goal.
IMO

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1415 on: May 28, 2021, 11:52:37 AM »
Your premise about working for the devil is incorrect.  Hence, the following is not meaningful.  There are radicals in every section of society, why would you choose the few in the Christian group to make your statements?
It is not "a few" but a significant minority in the double digits percentage of population. These people beliefe in Q and as ar as I know very many Q followers hae an evangelical background.

Quote
I do not believe that secularism and craziness are related in any way.  Secularists can be just as crazy as anyone else.
Yes they can, you are right.

The Walrus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1416 on: May 28, 2021, 01:44:29 PM »
Your premise about working for the devil is incorrect.  Hence, the following is not meaningful.  There are radicals in every section of society, why would you choose the few in the Christian group to make your statements?
It is not "a few" but a significant minority in the double digits percentage of population. These people beliefe in Q and as ar as I know very many Q followers hae an evangelical background.


What is "Q"?  Maybe I am ignorant, but if there were so many, I think I would know about it.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1417 on: May 28, 2021, 04:22:38 PM »
What is "Q"?  Maybe I am ignorant, but if there were so many, I think I would know about it.

Q-Anon.  A mythical anonymous insider who has posted on an obscure site.  Convinced literally millions of Americans that Democratic party elites are Satanist cannibal child sex traffickers.  Sounds like a joke, but isn't at all.

kassy

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1418 on: May 28, 2021, 06:08:49 PM »
Thank for the replies!

Does it never bother you when people suffer under the oppression of dictators?

The US spends too much on its military and not enough.

Yes of course but it´s not like the west always promotes democracy. Why did we outsource nearly all our production to a dictatorship anyway?

If i was a US citizen i would like to see less waste in the military budget. There is an awful amount of money wasted there...even if you just rate it as money invested vs all the other countries vs the output.

Possibly Putin could have been avoided if the west had actually helped Russia transfer to a democracy after the cold war ended instead of raiding it´s resources but we will never know.
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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1419 on: May 28, 2021, 06:39:22 PM »
What is "Q"?  Maybe I am ignorant, but if there were so many, I think I would know about it.

Q-Anon.  A mythical anonymous insider who has posted on an obscure site.  Convinced literally millions of Americans that Democratic party elites are Satanist cannibal child sex traffickers.  Sounds like a joke, but isn't at all.

Ah.  Many Christian refer to "Q" as the Quelle, or hypothetical source of some of the gospels.  We Star Trek fans associate Q with the Continuum.

I did some quick research on Q-Anon, and find it rather odd.  It appears to have started about three years with the post you describe, which would be an unheard of timeframe to reach double digits in followers.  In fact, a recent poll shows that only 4% of Americans support QAnon.

https://civiqs.com/results/qanon_support?uncertainty=true&annotations=true&zoomIn=true

I guess I am not alone, in that almost 60% had never heard of them in a poll conducted last fall.

https://www.isdglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/qanon-and-conspiracy-beliefs-full_toplines.pdf

Additionally, support in something does not equate to being a follower.  Many of the higher polling numbers (and I checked several) are based on how the responders answered questions that are based on QAnon beliefs.  The only belief that received a large response was “Democratic politicians and Hollywood stars are part of a global network that tortures and sexually abuses children in Satanic rituals”.  Why Democratic politicians was thrown in with Hollywood stars seems to be biased polling, as many people have a very low opinion of Hollywood - not that they have a high opinion of politicians.  Sex has run rampant in Hollywood, and recent accusations of sexual abuses within its circles may have tainted public opinion.  Also, some people may have responded to the sexual abuse part, without clearly attaching it to satanic rituals.  This seems to be bias polling, similar to including a statement about Gary Hart's sexual affair prior to answering the poll question about voting.  I noticed you separated the Hollywood stars from the equation and changed it to cannibal child sex traffickers.  I guess that is how things spread on the internet these days.

While all Qanon followers share some central beliefs, not all people who share some of those beliefs are Qanon followers.  This is an example of a reverse conditional fallacy.  While all Christians believe in God, not everyone who believes in God is a Christian.  Even non-Christians adhere to the statement made by Jesus, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  Matt 7:12.  Agreeing with this statements does not make them Christians.

Interestingly, a poll conducted by Brian Schaffner found that 28% of those who approved of Qanon intended to vote for Biden. 


kinbote

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1420 on: May 28, 2021, 11:41:26 PM »
It seems unusual anyone living in the US and even tangentially following politics would not have any knowledge of Qanon, but congratulations on missing out on that thus far. Anyway, a broader search might have returned this poll released today:


QAnon Now as Popular in U.S. as Some Major Religions, Poll Suggests

Fifteen percent of Americans believe that “patriots may have to resort to violence” to restore the country’s rightful order, the poll indicated.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/27/us/politics/qanon-republicans-trump.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

Quote
Those are the findings of a poll released today by the Public Religion Research Institute and the Interfaith Youth Core, which found that 15 percent of Americans say they think that the levers of power are controlled by a cabal of Satan-worshiping pedophiles, a core belief of QAnon supporters. The same share said it was true that “American patriots may have to resort to violence” to depose the pedophiles and restore the country’s rightful order.

And fully 20 percent of respondents said that they thought a biblical-scale storm would soon sweep away these evil elites and “restore the rightful leaders.”

“These are words I never thought I would write into a poll question, or have the need to, but here we are,” Robby Jones, the founder of P.R.R.I., said in an interview.

The teams behind the poll determined that 14 percent of Americans fall into the category of “QAnon believers,” composed of those who agreed with the statements in all three questions. Among Republicans only, that rises to roughly one in four. (Twelve percent of independents and 7 percent of Democrats were categorized as QAnon believers.)

“Thinking about QAnon, if it were a religion, it would be as big as all white evangelical Protestants, or all white mainline Protestants,” he added. “So it lines up there with a major religious group.”

The full poll details can be found here:
https://www.prri.org/research/qanon-conspiracy-american-politics-report/

Of interest, of those who profess a belief in Qanon, 39% believe "The COVID-19 vaccine contains a surveillance microchip that is the sign of the beast in biblical prophecy."

God bless America?

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1421 on: May 29, 2021, 08:05:41 AM »
Thank for the replies!

Does it never bother you when people suffer under the oppression of dictators?

The US spends too much on its military and not enough.

Yes of course but it´s not like the west always promotes democracy. Why did we outsource nearly all our production to a dictatorship anyway?

If i was a US citizen i would like to see less waste in the military budget. There is an awful amount of money wasted there...even if you just rate it as money invested vs all the other countries vs the output.

Possibly Putin could have been avoided if the west had actually helped Russia transfer to a democracy after the cold war ended instead of raiding it´s resources but we will never know.
Yes the US struggles with corruption and greed like every other country on earth. The more power we have as a nation the harder we have to work to fight the corruption. Some top advisors for the Russian transistion told them to just endure the shock and it will go away quickly. This IMO was horrible advise but their was concern that the transformation would stall if they did not do it all at once. I was not aware that the US raided Russia. That sounds like bullshit propaganda to me but I have been wrong before. I say that because the only real assets it had were fossil fuels.  My understanding was that Russia collapsed because communism provides no incentives for doing more and in fact discourages it as you would be expected due more every week. Most of the products made were not up to Western standards and companies closed. People suffered and many said this sucks worse than communism and Putin was able to come to power. For selfish reasons the US gave Russia bad advice on how to transition but I do not believe the US raided Russia. By blaming the US Russia deflects responsibility for the mess and provides an external target. As I understand it Putin has a Psychological operations background and has used it both internally to gain power and externally on the US. I do believe he is behind the Trump mess because Trump is not smart enough to pull off that disaster. I hate that we outsourced all our production the only comfort I have is some of those idiots lost their businesses entirely once they outsourced the production.

I repeat my earlier question because you did not answer it if the US shrinks its military who would you have grow theirs to fill the gap. Who will check Russia? Who will check China? Who checks North Korea? I want to say something about the Middle East too but frankly we could have done much to improve that situation but because of US political infighting we made the situation much worse. We should have taken over Iraq and rebuilt it after the first Iraq war. Leaving Sadam in power was stupid and created a lot of problems. Sadam targeted pro Western citizens after we left. Nation building when done properly works and improves the lives of those citizens. After 911 we should have focused on Afghanistan by making a half hearted effort there early on we destabilized the country and we never fully committed to that effort as time went on.

Please explain to me either who would step up if the US steps back or why the world would be better if we did not check Russia and China. China regularly does some pretty horrible thing to their people. The reeducation camps the slave labor etc. I know many former soviet republics are under constant threat from Putin's aggressive actions. I am willing to be wrong and misguided but a call to cut the US military appears very naïve to me.

kassy

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1422 on: May 29, 2021, 03:17:13 PM »
Quote
I was not aware that the US raided Russia. That sounds like bullshit propaganda to me but I have been wrong before. I say that because the only real assets it had were fossil fuels.

Not just fossil fuels but all kind of ores too. And companies that process it etc. The raiding was getting all kinds of companies on the cheap.

I repeat my earlier question because you did not answer it if the US shrinks its military who would you have grow theirs to fill the gap. Who will check Russia? Who will check China? Who checks North Korea?

Is there a gap?

One could argue that Russia and China are closing their gap to the US in military capability.
Who checks the USA? This is just the other side of that argument.

And thus we all waste more resources. Of course this will not stop.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

The Walrus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1423 on: May 29, 2021, 03:18:16 PM »
You have a good point about China and Russia.  There is one big difference between the two.  The old Soviet Union grew by outward aggression, mostly through the spoils of WWII.  After three decades of neglect, they collapsed under their own weight.  Chernobyl was the final straw.  Conversely, China is growing through internal development.  There are continuously improving their infrastructure, and are poised to last.  Consequently, China is less of a military threat, and more of an economic threat.  IMO, we have more to fear militarily from Putin (for many of the reasons stated), and less from China.  But without the might of the U.S., who would check either?

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1424 on: May 30, 2021, 01:25:36 AM »
Re: without the might of the U.S., who would check either [Russia or China] ?

"nearly half (44%) of respondents in the 53 countries surveyed are concerned that the US threatens democracy in their country; fear of Chinese influence is by contrast 38%, and fear of Russian influence is lowest at 28%"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll

The world, it seems, sees the USA as the greatest threat to democracy. 

Odd, ain't it ? Mebbe they are asking, rather, "Who will check the USA ?"

Naaah, can't be that. The USA is great, benevolent, wise and merciful.

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1425 on: May 30, 2021, 06:30:43 AM »
The US did not raid Russia I call bullshit that is propaganda. The US was used as a scapegoat for internal failures.
If the US ignored the latest Russian test Russia would have invaded. No one else would check Putin. China is becoming more aggressive in their region of the world as well. These are military threats that in my mind need to be checked. A much smaller military would not IMO check those threats. If you want me to change my mind telling me more people around the world fear the US military does not do it. That just says people around the world think the threat is credible. If you think China is not getting more aggressive militarily you need to add some new news sources.
If European democracies want to step up I would be happy to cede some of these responsibilities. But they have not and do not intend to for various reasons.






kassy

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1426 on: May 30, 2021, 12:00:13 PM »
You are clearly inside Empire America and looking out.

The US´ recent track record is not good with raiding Iraq for the oil, in fact the historical record is not that good with all the meddling in South and Middle America, all the regime change the US was involved with over time. And of course allies did not need to be democratically inclined (Marcos in the Philippines was not , the Sjah in good old Persia was not etc).

Of course China is stepping up it´s military and using it´s power but it also derives all that power from being made the worlds working place.

If you look at it as a big powers game the USA after winning the cold war went for all the spoils breaking Iraq and Libya in the process.

For Russia they lost all the Warschaupact countries so of course they are going to claw back some territory but they will not bother invading Europe.

China is a bigger problem but it´s further away and since we buy it´s crap they probably don´t want to invade us either. And thus we staunchly refuse to pay enough.


Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1427 on: May 31, 2021, 01:11:35 AM »
Kassy your premise from the beginning was that as a US taxpayer why don't I push to defund the US military. Then you argue from the point of someone who is not a US taxpayer and complain when I do not see your point.


I do see your points I just do not agree with your interpretation. The US is far from perfect but we also get a lot of bad press internationally. Some justified some not. Most of your premises are based on anti-American rhetoric. The US also does a lot of good in the world which few recognize. It is difficult to see through the haze of all that propaganda and it is evident you are only listening to one side.


Most of the people in those former soviet countries despise Russia and do not want to be retaken. Just because a country was invaded and taken over once does not mean the rest of the world should ignore them. The lesson of WWII is give a bully an inch and they feel empowered to take a mile.


If we really raided Iraq for oil why did we let them sell it all to the Chinese?
Even though China sends their own people to reeducation camps and forces many in to slave labor they can do no wrong in your eyes. China is currently acting more like the imperialist power you complain the US is. The argument that they only want to take over someone else and not me is pretty messed up.


The strategy of appeasement does not work in the long run no matter how much it seams to work in the short term.


I find it objectionable that you hold the US to a nearly impossible standard while excusing the appalling actions of others.









« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 01:16:54 AM by interstitial »

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1428 on: May 31, 2021, 08:19:12 AM »
Re: If you want me to change my mind

Oh, no, far be it from me to aspire to that. I was merely pointing out that a great many people the world over see the USA as a threat.

Now why do they think that ? Is it all propaganda against Empire ?  I should probably say "counterpropaganda," since Empire has its own propaganda

Let's review some counterpropaganda against Empire. Here is a brief list of some threats met by the USA and there are and were so many, many threats indeed. Blum has detail on US grand tour itenary since world war II to 2000, some repeats, since the audience so clearly wanted more.

China  1945-49, Italy 1947-48, Greece 1947-49, Philippines 1945-53, South Korea 1945-53, Albania 1949-53, Germany 1950s, Iran 1953, Guatemala 1953-1990, Middle East 1956-58, Indonesia 1957-58, British Guiana/Guyana 1953-64, Vietnam 1950-73, Cambodia 1955-73, The Congo/Zaire 1960-65, Brazil 1961-64, Dominican Republic 1963-66, Cuba 1959 to present, Indonesia 1965, Chile 1964-73, Greece 1964-74, East Timor 1975 to present, Nicaragua 1978-89, Grenada 1979-84, Libya 1981-89, Panama 1989, Iraq 1990s, Afghanistan 1979-92, El Salvador 1980-92, Haiti 1987-94, Yugoslavia 1999.

https://thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

Action to meet every one of those threats came with the accompaniment of the "mighty wurlitzer" of propaganda as it does today. Telling the organ grinders from the monkeys is not too difficult, but as we see in this very thread,  many will carry the tune.

http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/08/11/wur1-a11.html

And of course, the USA has met so many more threats since 2000.

An unkind person might ask, how come for every threat met, several more replace it ? Sorta like killing a terrorist creates a dozen more ?

More seriously, as Hudson and others have shown, meeting all these threats is expensive and profitable:

"The problem facing America’s military strategists was how to continue supporting the 800 U.S. military bases around the world and allied troop support without losing America’s financial leverage."

"After 1971, foreign central banks had little option for what to do with their continuing dollar inflows except to recycle them to the U.S. economy by buying U.S. Treasury securities. The effect of U.S. foreign military spending thus did not undercut the dollar’s exchange rate, and did not even force the Treasury and Federal Reserve to raise interest rates to attract foreign exchange to offset the dollar outflows on military account. In fact, U.S. foreign military spending helped finance the domestic U.S. federal budget deficit."

"So maintaining the dollar as the world’s reserve currency became a mainstay of U.S. military spending. Foreign countries to not have to pay the Pentagon directly for this spending. They simply finance the U.S. Treasury and U.S. banking system."

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg243351.html#msg243351

"That’s what most U.S. arms are for: not really to use ... These arms are not for fighting; they’re for making profits ... It’s like what Keynes talked about, building pyramids in order to create domestic purchasing power "

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg243351.html#msg243351

In short, Empire generates threats to fund itself.

But so expensive as well. Apart from death and destruction in foreign lands, the results are clearly seen inside the USA: An impoverished underclass, a rapacious oligarchy, decayed infrastructure, deeply racist law enforcement, failing schools, a health system from hell, enacted by politicians owned by plutocrats, enabled by a populace who, as Voltaire said, believe in absurdities and thus countenance atrocities.

In terms of realpolitik, a very good strategy for an adversary might be to grease the slide to ruin. Here is Osama bin Laden from 2004:

"All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al Qaeda, in order to make generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations,"

https://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/

And, that, perhaps, is why China has turned Wall Street into an ally, besides they're probably not averse to making some money off the ruin of the USA.

"I told you once before that there were two times for making big money, one in the up-building of a country and the other in its destruction. Slow money on the up-building, fast money in the crack-up." -- Rhett Butler in Margaret Mitchell's "Gone with the Wind"

All counterpropaganda, of course. Including "Gone with the Wind."

sidd

nanning

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1429 on: May 31, 2021, 09:42:12 AM »
That was a very good and enlightening read. Thank you sidd.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1430 on: May 31, 2021, 08:42:29 PM »
Welcome back, Nanning.

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1431 on: June 10, 2021, 02:10:30 AM »
what passes for 'learned statesman' in the US ...

Texas Republican Congressman Asks Forest Service to Change the Course of Earth’s Orbit Around the Sun
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/09/texas-republican-louie-gohmert-climate-change

Or maybe shift the moon a little. Maybe we could do that?

The Texas Republican congressman Louie Gohmert has asked a senior US government official if changing the moon’s orbit around the Earth, or the Earth’s orbit around the sun, might be a solution for climate change.

Bizarrely, the question was not posed to anyone from Nasa or even the Pentagon. Instead it was asked of a senior forestry service official during a House natural resources committee hearing on Tuesday.



Speaking with Jennifer Eberlien, associate deputy chief of the National Forest Service, Gohmert asked if it was possible to alter the orbits of the moon, or the Earth, as a way of combating climate change.

“I understand from what’s been testified to the Forest Service and the BLM [Bureau of Land Management], you want very much to work on the issue of climate change,” Gohmert said, adding that a past director of Nasa had once told him that orbits of the moon and the Earth were indeed changing.

“We know there’s been significant solar flare activity, and so … is there anything that the National Forest Service or BLM can do to change the course of the moon’s orbit, or the Earth’s orbit around the sun?” Gohmert asked. “Obviously that would have profound effects on our climate.”



------------------------------------------

... government by distraction
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― anonymous

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Rodius

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1432 on: June 10, 2021, 03:30:17 AM »
what passes for 'learned statesman' in the US ...

Texas Republican Congressman Asks Forest Service to Change the Course of Earth’s Orbit Around the Sun
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/09/texas-republican-louie-gohmert-climate-change

Or maybe shift the moon a little. Maybe we could do that?

The Texas Republican congressman Louie Gohmert has asked a senior US government official if changing the moon’s orbit around the Earth, or the Earth’s orbit around the sun, might be a solution for climate change.

Bizarrely, the question was not posed to anyone from Nasa or even the Pentagon. Instead it was asked of a senior forestry service official during a House natural resources committee hearing on Tuesday.



Speaking with Jennifer Eberlien, associate deputy chief of the National Forest Service, Gohmert asked if it was possible to alter the orbits of the moon, or the Earth, as a way of combating climate change.

“I understand from what’s been testified to the Forest Service and the BLM [Bureau of Land Management], you want very much to work on the issue of climate change,” Gohmert said, adding that a past director of Nasa had once told him that orbits of the moon and the Earth were indeed changing.

“We know there’s been significant solar flare activity, and so … is there anything that the National Forest Service or BLM can do to change the course of the moon’s orbit, or the Earth’s orbit around the sun?” Gohmert asked. “Obviously that would have profound effects on our climate.”



------------------------------------------

... government by distraction

They will try everything possible to avoid changing how the economy works and to not stop the actual things that cause the problem to begin with.

The mind boggles at the lengths people will go to in order to avoid changing how they live to save themselves.

The Walrus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1433 on: June 10, 2021, 04:52:58 PM »
The response from the National Forest Service was just as bizarre:

"I would have to follow up with you on that one, Mr. Gohmert," 

Does she not know the answer either?

BornFromTheVoid

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1434 on: June 10, 2021, 07:36:48 PM »
Most of the people in those former soviet countries despise Russia and do not want to be retaken. Just because a country was invaded and taken over once does not mean the rest of the world should ignore them. The lesson of WWII is give a bully an inch and they feel empowered to take a mile.

This video might be of interest to you.


I'd also recommend reading Manufacturing Consent by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky. It might change the way you perceive mainstream media in the US and the role of propaganda
I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1435 on: June 10, 2021, 08:31:33 PM »
I am done with this thread for now.

The Walrus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1436 on: June 14, 2021, 04:24:01 PM »
It seems unusual anyone living in the US and even tangentially following politics would not have any knowledge of Qanon, but congratulations on missing out on that thus far. Anyway, a broader search might have returned this poll released today:


QAnon Now as Popular in U.S. as Some Major Religions, Poll Suggests

Fifteen percent of Americans believe that “patriots may have to resort to violence” to restore the country’s rightful order, the poll indicated.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/27/us/politics/qanon-republicans-trump.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

Quote
Those are the findings of a poll released today by the Public Religion Research Institute and the Interfaith Youth Core, which found that 15 percent of Americans say they think that the levers of power are controlled by a cabal of Satan-worshiping pedophiles, a core belief of QAnon supporters. The same share said it was true that “American patriots may have to resort to violence” to depose the pedophiles and restore the country’s rightful order.

And fully 20 percent of respondents said that they thought a biblical-scale storm would soon sweep away these evil elites and “restore the rightful leaders.”

“These are words I never thought I would write into a poll question, or have the need to, but here we are,” Robby Jones, the founder of P.R.R.I., said in an interview.

The teams behind the poll determined that 14 percent of Americans fall into the category of “QAnon believers,” composed of those who agreed with the statements in all three questions. Among Republicans only, that rises to roughly one in four. (Twelve percent of independents and 7 percent of Democrats were categorized as QAnon believers.)

“Thinking about QAnon, if it were a religion, it would be as big as all white evangelical Protestants, or all white mainline Protestants,” he added. “So it lines up there with a major religious group.”

The full poll details can be found here:
https://www.prri.org/research/qanon-conspiracy-american-politics-report/

Of interest, of those who profess a belief in Qanon, 39% believe "The COVID-19 vaccine contains a surveillance microchip that is the sign of the beast in biblical prophecy."

God bless America?

Fivethirtyeight had a nice synopsis on QAnon support:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-hard-to-gauge-support-for-qanon/

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1437 on: July 28, 2021, 07:33:23 AM »
Hedges at scheerpost: how empire ends

"foreign occupations, designed to enrich the ruling elites, use occupied populations as laboratory rats to perfect techniques of control that soon migrate back to the homeland."

"The attacks of September 11, 2001 were not an existential threat to the United States. They were not politically significant. They did not disrupt the balance of global power. They were not an act of war. They were acts of nihilistic terror. "

"the attacks gave the ruling elites, lusting for control of the Middle East, especially Iraq, which had nothing to do with the attacks, the excuse to carry out the greatest strategic blunder in American history "

"We were the best thing that ever happened to the Taliban and al Qaeda. "

“While rising empires are often judicious, even rational in their application of armed force for conquest and control of overseas dominions, fading empires are inclined to ill-considered displays of power, dreaming of bold military masterstrokes that would somehow recoup lost prestige and power,”

"The state will increasingly dispense with the fiction of the rule of law to rely exclusively on militarized police, essentially internal armies of occupation, and the prisons and jails, which already hold 25 percent of the world’s prisoners"

"We are not the first empire to suffer this fate. It is a familiar ending. "

https://scheerpost.com/2021/07/26/hedges-the-collective-suicide-machine/

sidd

kassy

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1438 on: July 28, 2021, 08:16:38 PM »
Quote
When revenues shrink or collapse, McCoy points out, empires become “brittle.”


While there is a huge bill for neglected maintenance too:

How The Reagan Revolution Collapsed America & the Florida Condo
https://hartmannreport.com/p/how-the-reagan-revolution-collapsed

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

gerontocrat

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1439 on: July 29, 2021, 11:41:37 PM »
Quote
When revenues shrink or collapse, McCoy points out, empires become “brittle.”


While there is a huge bill for neglected maintenance too:

How The Reagan Revolution Collapsed America & the Florida Condo
https://hartmannreport.com/p/how-the-reagan-revolution-collapsed
And don't forget the long-term degradation of the US Public School system. I read old novels from gutenberg.org. It is surprising how many of the American novels from a 100 years or even 150 years ago include as a major element the US Public Schools and their influence in the development of indviduals and the nation. In the grounds of the Capitol in Raleigh on the back of the plinth of a Politician's statue is inscribed a tribute to this man who as part of Reconstruction after the Civil War promoted Public Education especially for women as essential for the revival of the South.

Now education, science and knowledge is despised by an unfortunately large minority of the population and that idiocy is reinforced by a good many politicians and media personalities.

Meanwhile, in India, China, Vietnam and in most of the developing world Education is prized beyond rubies.

Here in the UK England we are trying to catch up with the USA.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1440 on: July 30, 2021, 05:57:53 AM »
When I first saw this thread I thought it was critical of the US but not hostile to it. Critical is fine everyone needs improvement but that is not what this thread is. This is predominately the US haters club. The purpose seems to be to push an anti-American agenda without any acknowledgement of the hypocrosy expressed by many of the posters. Being critical of your countries decisions is important for every free open society and makes it easier to change for the better. Many but not all of the posts here seem to only be designed to tear down the US and not constructive at all. It can be a fine line between the two but I suggest this thread has stepped far over the line. I admit that in my frustration with my previous president that I was as bad as others. I find it especially frustrating that many things that people complain about in the US are true elsewhere and often are far worse but no one is talking about those issues. The list problems with any country is long but often fear of government action prevents open discussion of any such problem. I have observed that some citizens are conditioned to dogmatically defend there country even when there is no defense of the action. This lopsided discussion leaves some believing the US is the worst most oppressive country in the world. If you believe that you should spend more time looking for all the crap your country is doing. If you can't make a really long list off the top of your head of all the despicable crap your country is doing it just means that culturally and perhaps politicly your country does more to suppress that information. If you are not just as critical of your own country as you are of the US than YOU SHOULD JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP about the US.


I ASK THAT THE MODERATORS DELETE THIS THREAD AS THE HATE FILLED PLATFORM THAT IT IS.

oren

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1441 on: July 30, 2021, 06:15:42 AM »
Based on what you wrote, you might not realize many of the posters, including the esteemed JimD who started the thread (for good reasons), are Americans.
I don't read this thread much these days but I can completely understand what it is about, the American empire. The US is not just any country, and cannot be treated as such.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1442 on: July 30, 2021, 07:03:18 AM »
Based on what you wrote, you might not realize many of the posters, including the esteemed JimD who started the thread (for good reasons), are Americans.
I don't read this thread much these days but I can completely understand what it is about, the American empire. The US is not just any country, and cannot be treated as such.
If I observed a less hypocritical treatment of the US I would agree with you but I do not.

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1443 on: July 30, 2021, 07:51:24 AM »
I shan't presume to speak for JimD, but i draw attention to the title of this thread. As I read it, this is a discussion of the empire of the USA [1]

Now, while it is eminently true that the evils elsewhere of other nations rival and sometimes exceed those of the USA, this thread is perhaps not the one in which to discuss them ? I notice there is a thread about Russia, and one about China, and more could be created to discuss others.

But none of those nations would rate the term 'Empire.' There is only one Empire. At present. Declining, certainly, but far from dead. Yet.[2]

sidd

[1] the term "America" could of course be interpreted as including all those new world lands of the Monroe doctrine, but i suspect some cubans and others might object to inclusion in the satrapies of the USA.

[2] In these hyperactive times, collapse does come quick. The USSR for example, and that was a while ago.



SteveMDFP

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1444 on: July 30, 2021, 04:04:58 PM »
Based on what you wrote, you might not realize many of the posters, including the esteemed JimD who started the thread (for good reasons), are Americans.
I don't read this thread much these days but I can completely understand what it is about, the American empire. The US is not just any country, and cannot be treated as such.

I think the title is a misnomer.  There really isn't an "American" Empire (unless you're focused on, e.g., Puerto Rico), there's a multinational capitalist empire.  The United States does wield the bulk of the military force of the capitalist empire, but mostly in service to that multinational empire.

WildFit

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1445 on: July 30, 2021, 06:06:44 PM »
Based on what you wrote, you might not realize many of the posters, including the esteemed JimD who started the thread (for good reasons), are Americans.
I don't read this thread much these days but I can completely understand what it is about, the American empire. The US is not just any country, and cannot be treated as such.

I think the title is a misnomer.  There really isn't an "American" Empire (unless you're focused on, e.g., Puerto Rico), there's a multinational capitalist empire.  The United States does wield the bulk of the military force of the capitalist empire, but mostly in service to that multinational empire.

The current US-Empire, like current WARS are not the same like in the old times. The empire is more about influence, exploitation, blackmailing and pseude leadership.

Modern wars are often more proxy wars and/or asymmetrical. Nevertheless the Influence of the US in the world and on so called free countries is greater than that of former empires ever was, just more subtle and by no means better.

I prefer to know my limitations in freedom while nowadays we are the generations of the pseudo-free while in fact most of us are running in a big hamster-wheel and have little clue how brainwashed and guided they live.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1446 on: July 30, 2021, 07:39:02 PM »
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When revenues shrink or collapse, McCoy points out, empires become “brittle.”


While there is a huge bill for neglected maintenance too:

How The Reagan Revolution Collapsed America & the Florida Condo
https://hartmannreport.com/p/how-the-reagan-revolution-collapsed
And don't forget the long-term degradation of the US Public School system. I read old novels from gutenberg.org. It is surprising how many of the American novels from a 100 years or even 150 years ago include as a major element the US Public Schools and their influence in the development of indviduals and the nation. In the grounds of the Capitol in Raleigh on the back of the plinth of a Politician's statue is inscribed a tribute to this man who as part of Reconstruction after the Civil War promoted Public Education especially for women as essential for the revival of the South.

Now education, science and knowledge is despised by an unfortunately large minority of the population and that idiocy is reinforced by a good many politicians and media personalities.

Meanwhile, in India, China, Vietnam and in most of the developing world Education is prized beyond rubies.

Here in the UK England we are trying to catch up with the USA.

Many policies enacted in the public school system have changed for the worse.  They come under various catch phrases like "Centralized Decision Making," "Political Correctness," "Common Core," "Tenure," "Standardized Testing," "Behaviorism," and "No Child Left Behind".  We had the best school system in the world, until the government bureaucrats got involved.

kassy

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1447 on: July 30, 2021, 07:41:45 PM »
The Empire is the globally dominant country. For a long time it was the British Empire where the sun never set but that ended in WW2 and the US took over after WW2 obviously at first being balanced by the Soviet Union but after that collapsed it is number one.

Very much of the money that goes into that postulated multinational capitalist empire comes from the US. Also the EU states are mostly uncritically supportive of the general US policies, they mostly move along with what the boss says and the media narritive is then copy paste.

It is an American empire.

Then we get to complicated stuff.
Critical is fine but hostile is not...well i see a lot of highly critical stuff in this thread but nothing hostile.

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I find it especially frustrating that many things that people complain about in the US are true elsewhere
Why are there so much people in jail in the Home of the Free?

Why is there so much money being spend on military without proper auditing?

Can´t you train police better so they shoot less people?

And when we look at politics in general so little gets done. Reality seems subordinate to party affiliation and if every 4 years the only effort is breaking down what the other party did before that is not going to move things forward.

Somehow the US moved from the country that put the first people on the moon to a country that cannot get the general population vaccinated. Senators wield snowballs and the presidents staff uses sharpies. Florida banned the term sea level rise to buy time.

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This lopsided discussion leaves some believing the US is the worst most oppressive country in the world. If you believe that you should spend more time looking for all the crap your country is doing.

Actually many of us can be very critical of our own countries but that will not show up here since it is not the subject.

Basically when you see criticism of the US it offends or like you said:
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I have observed that some citizens are conditioned to dogmatically defend there country even when there is no defense of the action.


If we look at a global scale in a historic climate related metric there is also no getting away from Empire but i will put that in another post.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1448 on: July 30, 2021, 10:23:37 PM »
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This lopsided discussion leaves some believing the US is the worst most oppressive country in the world. If you believe that you should spend more time looking for all the crap your country is doing. If you can't make a really long list off the top of your head of all the despicable crap your country is doing it just means that culturally and perhaps politicly your country does more to suppress that information. If you are not just as critical of your own country as you are of the US than YOU SHOULD JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP about the US.

Here are some of the world freedom indexes.

2021 Index of Economic Freedom - The Heritage Foundation
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

The Human Freedom Index. Cato Institute, the Fraser Institute, and the Liberales Institut at the Friedrich Naumann Foundation for Freedom.
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2020

World freedom index Political rights and civil liberties. Freedom House
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Press freedom. Reporters without borders.
https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2021

I know my little piece of paradise is not perfect.. far from it.
But FFS ! The USA is way down the lists.
Until you get past your American exceptionalism you will not be an agent for the badly needed changes required for the USA to join the rest of the free world . 
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #1449 on: August 01, 2021, 06:15:04 AM »
Quote
This lopsided discussion leaves some believing the US is the worst most oppressive country in the world. If you believe that you should spend more time looking for all the crap your country is doing. If you can't make a really long list off the top of your head of all the despicable crap your country is doing it just means that culturally and perhaps politicly your country does more to suppress that information. If you are not just as critical of your own country as you are of the US than YOU SHOULD JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP about the US.

Here are some of the world freedom indexes.

2021 Index of Economic Freedom - The Heritage Foundation
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

The Human Freedom Index. Cato Institute, the Fraser Institute, and the Liberales Institut at the Friedrich Naumann Foundation for Freedom.
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2020

World freedom index Political rights and civil liberties. Freedom House
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

Press freedom. Reporters without borders.
https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2021

I know my little piece of paradise is not perfect.. far from it.
But FFS ! The USA is way down the lists.
Until you get past your American exceptionalism you will not be an agent for the badly needed changes required for the USA to join the rest of the free world . 
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2020
Out of 10 regions, the highest levels of freedom are in North America (Canada and the United States), Western Europe, and East Asia. The lowest levels are in the Middle East and North Africa, sub‐​Saharan Africa, and South Asia.


This is from your reference. What is your point? I don't claim American exceptionalism those are your words not mine.

We have problems I think outsiders sometimes think the US is worse than it is because we talk openly about those problems while many cultures hide their problems. My claim is the tone shifted. Many people on this thread even if not part of the US seem to recognize that their countries have problems too.  It comes out in the things they mention and the way they mention them. Other people speak as if there country was not flawed as well. It comes across in the morally superior attitude.
Every country is flawed just as every person is flawed. What some countries do better in other countries do worse at. That does not mean that those countries are better because they have other things that they do worse at. So we all have strengths and weaknesses. Some speak as if everything the US does is wrong and nothing is right. That attitude is a message of hate and should not be acceptable to most people. It is easy to let it creep in to the discussion of all the problems the US has.