US intervention in foreign lands

[sidd]

The Russiagate thread is getting offtopic, so I started this one.

Military intervention:

https://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

Covert election interference:


doi: 10.1177/0738894216661190

"Overall, 117 partisan electoral interventions were made by the US and the USSR/Russia between 1 January 1946 and 31 December 2000. Eighty-one (or 69%) of these interventions were done by the US while the other 36 cases (or 31%) were conducted by the USSR/ Russia. To put this number in the proper perspective, during the same period 937 competi- tive national-level executive elections, or plausible targets for an electoral intervention, were conducted within independent countries."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/

http://beta.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html

sidd

[sidd]

Covert + overt interventions

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

sidd

[johnm33]

Recent https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line
So last century https://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/10/24/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/

[TerryM]

Although Britain was an enthusiastic partner in joining the American sanctions against the latest Russian LNG project, she may also become the first to purchase the newly available Russian Arctic gas. Will America's partners prove to be less malleable in future interventions?


https://www.ft.com/content/6fc45d4e-dfed-11e7-8f9f-de1c2175f5ce


A person close to Russia’s energy ministry said the tanker delivery made the UK’s decision to back sanctions against Moscow “look like someone biting the hand that feeds him”.

[/size]Apparently unusually cold weather coupled with the loss of some of Britain's North Sea fields has led the recently commissioned Christophe de Margerie, with her cargo of Russian LNG, to the Isle of Grain import terminal in Kent.The Yamal LNG project came in on time and on budget.[/font]
[/size]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-14/russia-dreams-big-as-u-s-fails-to-kill-27-billion-gas-project.
“It’s the only project I can think of in the last decade that actually is on time and on budget,” said Henderson at the Oxford Institute. “It’s pretty impressive.”[/font][/color]

[/size]While sanctions continue to hurt both Europe and Russia, the market for expensive American produced LNG is still elusive. The western banking sector lost out when they weren't allowed to bid on financing the $27B project.

[/size]Apologies for the formatting, he most sheepishly appended.
[/size]Terry
[/size][/color]

[sidd]

Nick Turse continues his coverage of US troops in foreign lands. 149 foreign lands.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176363/tomgram%3A_nick_turse%2C_a_wider_world_of_war

sidd

[TerryM]

The Exceptional Empire's sanctions against Gazprom & Nord Stream II appear to be failing. Oh, and Gazprom's share of the European market hits 40% for the first time ever!


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Nord-Stream-2-Is-A-Game-Changer-For-Gazprom.html

Even Ukraine is now poised to purchase their gas directly from it's Russian source as soon as the first quarter of this year. Can the others be far behind in rejecting the Empire's pricey admonitions to eschew Russian energy?

Terry

[TerryM]

Could our own New York Times have documented some of the instances in which the US has subverted democracies around the world?


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/sunday-review/russia-isnt-the-only-one-meddling-in-elections-we-do-it-too.html

Of course they pretend that when America does it, it's because they are "good", and when Russia does it, it's because they are "bad". If such blatant bias satisfies, I've few arguments to offer.

If however you look at the results, blinding yourself to who the perpetrator was, you may find yourself convinced that America has indeed interfered with many democracies.

Terry

[zizek]

I'm glad western media and governments picked the right side in the Ukrainian conflict.  :rolls eyes forever into eternity:

It sure kicked off to a good start....
https://orientalreview.org/2017/11/23/cheap-dignity-of-the-ukrainian-revolution/
hmmmm. yikes. at least the ruskies weren't able to exert their influence

How did things go afterwards? Well. not that great...
https://twitter.com/DefendingHistor/status/968160742305423360

Literally branding people with swastikas. I'm sure western media is jumping all over this.... I'm sure we're hearing all sorts of apologies from pundits supporting literal torturous nazis

----

Seem familiar? Well, probably not... But if anybody would like a healthy dose of "history repeats itself". This almost exact same thing happened post WWII. The Americans provided material support for Ukrainian ultra-right nationalists, known for their brutal executions of jews, poles, and russias (so brutal even the Wehrmacht were concerned of their tactics).  The Americans wanted the nationalists to sabotage USSR efforts, and foster anti-USSR sentiment in Eastern Europe.
Sounds ridiculous right? Well, read the CIA's very own unclassified report on it!

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/STUDIES%20IN%20INTELLIGENCE%20NAZI%20-%20RELATED%20ARTICLES_0015.pdf

-----


Everyone looooves to kick and scream about Russian meddling into our precious western "democracies". But in two decades NATO has given us Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan and many more that we didn't completely decimate with freedom bombs and bullets (honduras, ukraine).

Yes please, invoke "whataboutism" tell me about how even though what we do is bad, we should be able to criticize places like Russia..... how about no? How about who gives a shit what Russia does? Because it's pretty clear America is using "Russian Influence" to divert attention from it's own disgusting political structure. Democrats, Republicans, whatever. Why the hell does everyone buy into this bullshit? Whats the endgame here? Is the world going to find eternal peace once Mueller Captures all the Russian twitter bots?
If we get rid of the pesky russians, will we finally find the courage to stand up to western imperialism?
 

[zizek]

When I consider how easy people fall for the rhetoric used to justify regime change overseas, I think about it in the context of climate change.

There's an info-graphic showing the pathway for every country in the world to develop a renewable energy grid. I get a real good kick out of it, because I immediately think of Yemen....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/yemen-war-saudi-arabia-children-deaths-famine-disease-latest-figures-a8057441.html

An american ally is literally starving children to death as a military tactic. Which isn't too much different than the American sanctions imposed on Iraq that killed half a million children.

This brutality and complete disregard for life was met with almost no resistance from the people of western nations. Sure, there were some protests in regards to the Iraq invasion... But what was the outcome? Well, I'm sure the current state of american politics can answer that...


What does this have to do with climate change? Just look at how quickly we'll support, or turn a blind eye, towards violence and suffering in the best of times. Rarely do we offer any criticism or careful analysis of these events.

Now imagine how convenient and easy it's going to be to ignore suffering overseas when our society is going to be strained due to climate change. Imagine how easy people will fall for different nationalistic rhetoric:
"They're starving because they didn't want to become civilized like us"
"If they developed green infrastructure like us, they'd be so much better off"
"Why should we accept them as refugees, they're savages"
"They should be happy to work in our labor camps"

There is a huge population of people in the world that will never be afforded the chance to develop. There existence is miserable now, and when climate change hits, it will be hellish. We will never help. We will never offer assistance to develop their renewable infrastructure. Those people are left to the crows.

The future looks great!

[Rob Dekker]

I'm glad western media and governments picked the right side in the Ukrainian conflict.  :rolls eyes forever into eternity:

It sure kicked off to a good start....
https://orientalreview.org/2017/11/23/cheap-dignity-of-the-ukrainian-revolution/
hmmmm. yikes. at least the ruskies weren't able to exert their influence

How did things go afterwards? Well. not that great...
https://twitter.com/DefendingHistor/status/968160742305423360

Literally branding people with swastikas. I'm sure western media is jumping all over this.... I'm sure we're hearing all sorts of apologies from pundits supporting literal torturous nazis

zizek, why do you bother quoting this crap ?

Let's break this down :
orientalreview.org is a known Russian propaganda web site. They are listed on propornot.com :
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

and they got there because they consistently report Russian mis-information.

In this example, they are pushing a conspiracy theory that Mikhail Saakashvili was behind the 2014 Ukraine uprising and snipers. Zero evidence though.

Also, they fail the MH-17 test with BS like this :

https://orientalreview.org/2017/09/04/new-twist-investigation-flight-mh17/

The decoded recordings clearly showed that the missile had been fired from the zone controlled by the Ukrainian military.

No it doesn't.
They only show a picture that shows launch positions that were under control of Russian forces.

And regarding your 'DefendingHistor' twitter post, this guy refers to a report on the osce.org web site :
https://www.osce.org/pc/233896?download=true&utm_content=buffer6d130&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Which clearly states :

‘War Crimes of the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine:
torture and inhumane treatment (second report)’ was
prepared by a non-state organization ‘The Foundation for The Study of
Democracy’ (headed by M. Grigoriev) and the Russian Public Council
for International Cooperation and Public Diplomacy (presided over by
S. Ordzhonikidze) with the assistance of the Russian Peace Foundation
(L. Slutsky, Y. Sutormina), S. Mamedov, I. Morozov, E. Tarlo, D. Savelyev,
A. Chepa and other members of the Committee for Public Support of
the Residents of Southeastern Ukraine.

Which means it was compiled by Russian organizations, NOT by OSCE.

Not to mention that the report provides ZERO evidence of "literally branding people with swastikas.". Just words. No pictures, no context, nothing.

The only question I have is why do you post Russian propaganda sites on this fine forum ?

[Martin Gisser]

We had our share of Ukraine discussion in specific threads here. I saw extremely ugly Russian lies there. One was almost above what a cynic like me could stand (the "raped" woman in the burnt building).

Particularly the "Nazis in Ukraine" stuff turned out Russian disinformation.

It's like with Trump: When he denies something or accuses someone else, it is about him more certainly than not.

Looks very childish -- and Trump is indeed childish -- but Russians seem too intelligent to engage in such primitive tactics. So I thought...

But it is about the audience. Some lies are so egregious that it is difficult to consider them lies. Also, some truths. (Admit it, dear Homo S Sapiens, global warming is self-insulting, thus unbelieveable.)

The Ukraine threads showed it works. The Russiagate denial here (a forum of very intelliogent folks) shows it works. Some here still want to "drain the swamp" before Trump gets kicked out - while the Trump swamp is way deeper and corrupt than the supposed Hillary swamp.

-----
Slowly but surely I find the polit threads here psychopathologically fascinating...

Edit done. Running away...

[sidd]

A little sanity, but that bill has very little chance.

https://www.juancole.com/2018/03/yemen-bernie-sanders.html

sidd

[sidd]

Another small war, didn't they send Smedley Butler there over a century ago ?

http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/what-to-expect-in-the-new-american-%E2%80%98war-on-terror%E2%80%99-in-the-philippines

sidd

[Neven]

I think the only interesting question for this thread, is this:

Is it different when the US does it? Is it in fact good because it's for freedom and democracy? Or is it worse, because it's done for resources, weapon sales/outsourcing, and access for corporations?

If it's the latter, it ties into my argument that it would be more important/useful to use Russiagate to talk about these things, than to focus exclusively on the Trump-collusion-impeachment story.

If it's the latter, it is of paramount importance to talk about these things, non-stop. Just like they did to end segregation and the Vietnam war. When is the American people going to demand the endless wars and interference to stop? I know the German people have never gone out in the street to protest Nazi Germany's meddling between 1933 and 1945, but they were living in a totalitarian state.

[sidd]

Don't you know ?  As I posted on another thread:

--
When asked whether the U.S. interferes in other countries’ elections, James Woolsey said, “Well, only for a very good cause in the interests of democracy."
--

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,617.msg142673.html#msg142673

sidd

[zheega]

Is it different when the US does it? Is it in fact good because it's for freedom and democracy?

A simple answer; "US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of World's Dictatorships"

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42020-us-provides-military-assistance-to-73-percent-of-world-s-dictatorships

Current US foreign policy doesn't care about "freedom" and "democracy" at all. We are interfering in the Honduras elections RIGHT NOW.


Anyway, first let's start with current US wars. So far all of those are GW Bush and Obama wars, Trump hasn't started any new wars yet: Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and ~20k troops in "undisclosed locations". Am I missing any countries?

One of those wars could be challenged soon - "Senators Bernie Sanders, Mike Lee, and Chris Murphy Invoke the War Powers Act to End US Involvement in Yemen"

https://www.thenation.com/article/senators-bernie-sanders-mike-lee-and-chris-murphy-invoke-war-powers-act-to-end-us-involvement-in-yemen/

[Neven]

There are people (like Sam Harris, I believe) who do argue it's different when the US does it. Maybe there are people here who want to argue likewise.

[zheega]

It is different! US uses nice Christian bombs, that don't kill civilians. Also, US supports dictators who only dictate love and hugging. It is totally different.

Slave markets in Libya sell only Muslim slaves, so who cares that Libya had the longest life expectancy before we destroyed it, right?

Sam Harris is an idiot.

[Rob Dekker]

Is it different when the US does it? Is it in fact good because it's for freedom and democracy?

A simple answer; "US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of World's Dictatorships"

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42020-us-provides-military-assistance-to-73-percent-of-world-s-dictatorships

truth-out.org is on the propornot.com list :
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

That doesn't mean the information is not correct, but one should be careful.

Let's take a look at this statement :  "US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of World's Dictatorships".

There are two parts to that statement :
1) Which countries do you designate as having a 'Dictatorship' and
2) Which countries does the US provide Military training to.

As to the first question, truth-out.org came up with their own metric. I'm not going to get into the details as to where I dispute their metric, since that would take much more time. For the moment, just note that it is THEIR OWN metric, not some universal truth.

As to the second question, they quote this report by the US as evidence :
https://2009-2017.state.gov/documents/organization/265162.pdf

Which states :

The report contains approximately 55,900 individual events. In Fiscal Year 2015,
approximately 76,400 students from 154 countries participated in training, the total cost of
which was approximately $876.5 million.

The US provides military training to 154 countries which is 79% of our planet's 195 countries.

So for sure there will be some countries that truth-out.org by their own metric designated as 'Dictatorships'.

The reason that the US is involved in training military around the world, is that a well trained military commits fewer atrocities than an untrained military.

Reason, people. Reason.

[edit] I just realized that the 154 countries trained does not include NATO countries.
That brings the total number of countries that the US is training or is friendly with much closer to 100 %. So the list of countries that the US is NOT engaging with is much smaller, and includes only countries that are, or may become hostile to the US, or are gross human rights violators. Like North Korea, and Iran, and Syria, and Russia and China.

truth-out.org's list includes moderate countries like Ethiopia, which has a democracy in place, and term limits, and is not threatening anyone.

Which exposes more a problem with truth-out.org's list of "Dictatorships" than it does with the US policy of training professional military personnel around the world.

[Hefaistos]

Reason, people. Reason.

Rob, there are academic researchers working full-time with these things, no need to invent things here. Easier to got to those sources. Wikipedia has a comprehensive article on the matter. One of the recent studies is by Dov Levin. One conclusion in that study, comparing USA and Russia:

"According to the study, the U.S. intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, while the Soviet Union or Russia intervened in 36."

Levin, Dov H. (June 2016). "When the Great Power Gets a Vote: The Effects of Great Power Electoral Interventions on Election Results". International Studies Quarterly. 60 (2): 189–202.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_electoral_intervention

[Rob Dekker]

As for the MH17 test on truth-out.org, they are not as bad as orientalreview.org that zizak was quoting, but they still propose stupid biased questions like this :

Or did some element of the Ukrainian government – possibly associated with one of Ukraine's corrupt oligarchs – fire the missile, either mistaking the Malaysian plane for a Russian one or calculating how the tragedy could be played for propaganda purposes?

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/32396-propaganda-intelligence-and-malaysia-airlines-flight-17

And this is posted Aug 2015, way after the Dutch Safety Board had already determined that the launch position was from an area south of Snizhne which was controlled by the Russians, and way after the September 2014 determination of open-source journalists like Bellingcat that the launch vehicle was actually from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk, Russia.

So either truth-out.org was not paying any attention, or they deliberately spread Russian dis-information.

[sidd]

Re: "The reason that the US is involved in training military around the world, is that a well trained military commits fewer atrocities than an untrained military.'

I expected an apologist for empire would be along soon.

The usa has turned it's "well trained" military into mass killers and torturers. Or have we forgotten Abu Ghraib so soon ? Apparently some of us have. So let me refresh your memory.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html

Taguba, now that he is out of the military, has accused the USA of war crimes:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/06/18/BL2008061801546.html

But the USA has trained foreign torturers and murderers for a very long time. The School of the Americas became such an infamous name, they had to change it.

Look these killers up:

 Argentina    Emilio Massera, Jorge Rafael Videla, Leopoldo Galtieri, Roberto Eduardo Viola
 Bolivia    Hugo Banzer Suárez, Luis Arce Gómez, Juan Ramón Quintana Taborga, Manfred Reyes Villa
 Chile    Raúl Iturriaga, Manuel Contreras, Miguel Krassnoff
 Ecuador    Guillermo Rodríguez
 El Salvador    Roberto D'Aubuisson
 Guatemala    Marco Antonio Yon Sosa,  Efraín Ríos Montt Otto Pérez Molina
 Mexico    The Zetas Cartel founders Heriberto 'The Executioner' Lazcano and Arturo 'Zeta One' Guzmán Decena
 Panama    Omar Torrijos, Manuel Noriega
 Peru    Juan Velasco Alvarado, Vladimiro Montesinos, Ollanta Humala
 Venezuela    Vladimir Padrino López

sidd

[Rob Dekker]

Re: "The reason that the US is involved in training military around the world, is that a well trained military commits fewer atrocities than an untrained military.'

I expected an apologist for empire would be along soon.

Excuse me ?

I showed that the accusation that the "US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of World's Dictatorships" was mis-information, and I showed exactly why. I also showed that the web-site that posted that mis-information posts more mis-information about other subjects like MH17.

Can you at least acknowledge that before you call me an "apologist for empire" and move on to the next subject ?

Thank you.

[sidd]

I quoted exactly your statement i was replying to.

"The reason that the US is involved in training military around the world, is that a well trained military commits fewer atrocities than an untrained military.'

I am not discussing anything else in my reply. I challenge your assertion, and in my opinion, anyone making it is an apologist for empire. The army of the USA is now an army that does not respect the Geneva Convention, indulges in torture, and kills civilians by the hunfreds.

sidd

[sidd]

Out of curiosity, has anyone here read the Taguba report I linked to a few posts ago ? Not quite as horrific as the Senate torture report, but it will take a strong stomach.

sidd

[Rob Dekker]

I quoted exactly your statement i was replying to.

"The reason that the US is involved in training military around the world, is that a well trained military commits fewer atrocities than an untrained military.'

I am not discussing anything else in my reply. I challenge your assertion, and in my opinion, anyone making it is an apologist for empire. The army of the USA is now an army that does not respect the Geneva Convention, indulges in torture, and kills civilians by the hunfreds.

sidd

So you are disputing my reasonable opinion about the intentions of the US to train pretty much EVERY military on the planet, with a few extreme exceptions.
 
Fine. Give me a better reason why the US is training military personnel in almost every country on Earth.
 
Sidd, you are a fine commenter, but when it comes to the US, you seem to lack reason, and go right to assuming the worst. But you seem to have no problem with what the Russians are doing. Including shooting down a civilian airliner.

That exposes a blatant bias on your part.

[sidd]

"you seem to have no problem with what the Russians are doing. Including shooting down a civilian airliner."

I draw your attention to the title of this thread. If only someone could start a thread called, say, "Russia in Ukraine," perhaps people could discuss MH-17 and such matters over there.

What a concept.

O wait. I think I was the one that did that already. Never mind.

sidd

[Rob Dekker]

"you seem to have no problem with what the Russians are doing. Including shooting down a civilian airliner."

I draw your attention to the title of this thread. If only someone could start a thread called, say, "Russia in Ukraine," perhaps people could discuss MH-17 and such matters over there.
sidd

What a concept.

O wait. I think I was the one that did that already. Never mind.

You have no heart.

[Rob Dekker]

I just checked the first one on your list :

Emilio Eduardo Massera (October 19, 1925 – November 8, 2010) was an Argentine Naval military officer, and a leading participant in the Argentine coup d'état of 1976. In 1981, he was found to be a member of P2[2] (also known as Propaganda Due, a clandestine Masonic lodge involved in Italy's strategy of tension). Many considered Massera to have masterminded the junta's Dirty War against political opponents, which resulted in nearly 13,000 deaths and disappearances, according to official records. Human rights groups put the toll closer to 30,000.[3]

Nice company you have got there, sidd.

[Neven]

I just checked the first one on your list :

Emilio Eduardo Massera (October 19, 1925 – November 8, 2010) was an Argentine Naval military officer, and a leading participant in the Argentine coup d'état of 1976. In 1981, he was found to be a member of P2[2] (also known as Propaganda Due, a clandestine Masonic lodge involved in Italy's strategy of tension). Many considered Massera to have masterminded the junta's Dirty War against political opponents, which resulted in nearly 13,000 deaths and disappearances, according to official records. Human rights groups put the toll closer to 30,000.[3]

Nice company you have got there, sidd.

And now look up what America's role in Argentina's dirty war was. That's exactly sidd's point, and so you need to read more carefully and keep your emotions/bias in check.

The central question for this thread is: Is it okay when the US does it?

It would seem that for you the answer is 'yes', Rob. But I might be mistaken.

[Human Habitat Index]

11 September 1973

The 1973 Chilean coup d'état was a watershed event in both the history of Chile and the Cold War. Following an extended period of social unrest and political tension between the right-controlled Congress of Chile and the socialist President Salvador Allende, as well as economic warfare ordered by U.S. President Richard Nixon,[6] Allende was overthrown by the armed forces and national police.[7][8]

The military deposed Allende's Popular Unity government and later established a junta that suspended all political activity in Chile and repressed left-wing movements, especially the communist and socialist parties and the Revolutionary Left Movement (MIR). Allende's appointed army chief, Augusto Pinochet, rose to supreme power within a year of the coup, formally assuming power in late 1974.[9] The United States government, which had worked to create the conditions for the coup,[10] promptly recognized the junta government and supported it in consolidating power.[11]

Australian involvement
An Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS) station was established in Chile out of the Australian embassy in July 1971 at the request of the CIA and authorised by then Liberal Party Foreign Minister William McMahon. New Labor Prime Minister Gough Whitlam was informed of the operation in February 1973 and signed a document ordering the closure of the operation several weeks later. It appears, however, the last ASIS agent did not leave Chile until October 1973, one month after the CIA-backed coup d'état had brought down the Allende Government. There were also two officers of Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO), Australia's internal security service, who were based in Santiago working as migration officers during this period.[56][57] The failure of timely closure of Australia's covert operations was one of the reasons for the sacking of the Director of ASIS on 21 October 1975, to take effect on 7 November just four days before Prime Minister's Whitlam's own dismissal in the 1975 Australian constitutional crisis with allegations of CIA political interference.[58]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Australian_involvement

Gough Whitlam was "sacked" 11 November 1975

[Rob Dekker]

And now look up what America's role in Argentina's dirty war was. That's exactly sidd's point, and so you need to read more carefully and keep your emotions/bias in check.

Fair enough.

Nothing in your link tells anything about "America's role in Argentina's dirty war".
There are just suggestions. Just speculation. Like "Declassifying a more extensive set of documents would also bring into sharper focus a shameful period of American foreign policy,..."
but there is no evidence yet.

I'm sure that once the evidence comes to light, the role of the US will become clear. And I'm sure there is a lot of dirt there.

But that evidence is not there yet, and I'd like to stay focussed :
The reason for my posting here was that there was an accusation that the "US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of World's Dictatorships".
And I pointed out that that is mis-information, and why.
And I pointed out that this web site is on a list that is known to spread Russian propaganda.
And I pointed out that the same web-site promoted mis-information before, regarding MH17.

Can any of you (sidd or Neven) please acknowledge that before we move on to Argentina ?

Thanks

[Neven]

Can any of you (sidd or Neven) please acknowledge that before we move on to Argentina ?

I don't want to move on to Argentina because it doesn't have to do with the central question. And if it makes you happy that I acknowledge that the US doesn't provide military assistance to 73 percent but only 10-20 percent of the world's dictatorships, fine, but that too detracts from the central question.

The central question for this thread is: Is it okay when the US does it?

It would seem that for you the answer is 'yes', Rob. But I might be mistaken.

[TerryM]

The American Military has always fought for "Truth, Justice & The American Way" - Oh Wait, that was a cartoon character in blue tights sporting a red cape.


Some live in a make believe world.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/28/world/world-court-supports-nicaragua-after-us-rejected-judges-role.html?pagewanted=all


Terry

[gerontocrat]

RealPolitik.

The Great Powers have always interfered in Foreign Lands. The USA should be very grateful - it is possible the Brits would have won the US War of Independence had France not decided to back the Revolutionaries against the Brits.

At the time France was an absolute monarchy - it was before Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Backing the  fledgling democracy of the 13 sisters against the UK wasn't a good idea for the French establishment. The guillotine was to be invented in a few years time (originally developed as a more humane method of execution - 1st victim in 1791).

France Allied with American Colonies
February 6, 1778
"Friends, and in French, amis!" On February 6, 1778, Benjamin Franklin was in France signing the Treaty of Amity and Commerce and the Treaty of Alliance. The Treaty of Amity and Commerce recognized the U.S. as an independent nation and promoted trade between France and America. The second agreement, the Treaty of Alliance, made the fledgling United States and France allies against Great Britain in the Revolutionary War. The French decided to back the U.S. in its military efforts until the U.S. had full independence from Great Britain. After that, the treaty required France and the U.S. to work together on any peace agreement.

Louis XVI
Upon his grandfather's death on 10 May 1774, he assumed the title "King of France and Navarre", which he used until 4 September 1791, when he received the title of "King of the French" until the monarchy was abolished on 21 September 1792. Louis XVI was guillotined on 21 January 1793.

[NevB]

Gough Whitlam was "sacked" 11 November 1975

The CIA certainly welcomed Gough Whitlam's dismissal and probably played some role in making it happen. Gough was our Bernie Sanders a true progressive that terrified the conservatives by implementing policy that helped the people, Medicare, free University, no fault divorce and many more. Then there was a raid by the Federal police on ASIO a challenge to the establishment that probably still to this day shapes the response of the so called "deep state" to any perceived progressive threat. This is what possibly enabled the involvement of the CIA.     

The conservatives fought back with all means fouls or fair eventually removing him after ignoring convention on the replacement of a senator, then blocking supply (same as US gov shutdown) and manipulating the governor general into deposing the government. Then with no legitimate reason appointing the opposition as caretaker government until the election. Where the conservative media completed the coup.

This kind of fits in this thread as in this case a military intervention didn't happen but the motivations and result was the same.





 
     
 

[johnm33]

Another small war, didn't they send Smedley Butler there over a century ago ?

http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/what-to-expect-in-the-new-american-%E2%80%98war-on-terror%E2%80%99-in-the-philippines

sidd

So what i'd expect is for the international special insurgency service [beats bringing back the draft] to begin carrying out atrocities, unreported, provoking retaliation from Duterte. This sets off a storm of righteous protest about human rights, civilian casualties etc., and calls for his replacement and intervention by 'the international community'. Thus bringing the Phillipines back under the American globalist yoke and putting them on the front line of the confrontation with China. All for their own good of course.
edit spelling

[gerontocrat]

Another small war, didn't they send Smedley Butler there over a century ago ?

http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/what-to-expect-in-the-new-american-%E2%80%98war-on-terror%E2%80%99-in-the-philippines

sidd

So what i'd expect is for the international special insurgency service [beats bring back the draft] to begin carrying out atrocities, unreported, provoking retaliation from Duterte. This sets off a storm of righteous protest about human rights, civilian casualties etc., and calls for his replacement and intervention by 'the international community'. Thus bringing the Phillipines back under the American globalist yoke and putting them on the front line of the confrontation with China. All for their own good of course.

Below is what Wikipedia say about the US Philippines war. Wikipedia does also write about the conduct of that war and its aftermath, but has no reference to the eventual Congressional enquiry that did not publish its findings as it would have brought dishonour to the US military.

The Philippine–American War was an armed conflict between the First Philippine Republic and the United States that lasted from February 4, 1899 to July 2, 1902.[2] The Filipinos saw the conflict as a continuation of the Filipino struggle for independence that began in 1896 with the Philippine Revolution; the U.S. government regarded it as an insurrection.[13] The conflict arose when the First Philippine Republic objected to the terms of the Treaty of Paris under which the United States took possession of the Philippines from Spain, ending the Spanish–American War.[14]

Fighting erupted between forces of the United States and those of the Philippine Republic on February 4, 1899, in what became known as the Second Battle of Manila. On June 2, 1899, the First Philippine Republic officially declared war against the United States.[15][16] The war officially ended on July 2, 1902 with a victory for the United States. However, some Philippine groups—led by veterans of the Katipunan—continued to battle the American forces for several more years...... Other groups continued hostilities in remote areas and islands, including the Moro people and Pulahanes people, until their final defeat at the Battle of Bud Bagsak on June 15, 1913.[17]

[johnm33]

"Below is what Wikipedia say about the US Philippines war" other histories are available. It was about as bloody as the plains clearances after the repeating rifle was invented. The losers voice lost in much the same way. A pity really the poor sods thought they were being liberated, and i'm not sure anything extra was gained by the imposition of the new tyranny, than could have been gained by a more benign arrangement, the USA had a lot to offer.

[ivica]

Even one dead because of greed is one too much, I'm not in the mood to finish reading of it:

https://www.sott.net/article/363893-The-United-States-has-a-serious-empathy-problem-Breeding-violence-abroad-ignorance-at-home-and-tragedy-around-the-world

"Among many Americans and certainly among those whose narrative is embraced by the mainstream media, the wider world's cognitive dissonance is somehow lost in an ever pervasive exceptionalist attitude whereby Americans elevate their domestic tragedies to the level of a cataclysm, while the deaths caused by the United States in the wider world, are reduced at best to the level of statistics and at worse, to the level of a macabre achievement.
"

[zizek]

I'm glad western media and governments picked the right side in the Ukrainian conflict.  :rolls eyes forever into eternity:

It sure kicked off to a good start....
https://orientalreview.org/2017/11/23/cheap-dignity-of-the-ukrainian-revolution/
hmmmm. yikes. at least the ruskies weren't able to exert their influence

How did things go afterwards? Well. not that great...
https://twitter.com/DefendingHistor/status/968160742305423360

Literally branding people with swastikas. I'm sure western media is jumping all over this.... I'm sure we're hearing all sorts of apologies from pundits supporting literal torturous nazis

zizek, why do you bother quoting this crap ?

Let's break this down :
orientalreview.org is a known Russian propaganda web site. They are listed on propornot.com :
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

and they got there because they consistently report Russian mis-information.

In this example, they are pushing a conspiracy theory that Mikhail Saakashvili was behind the 2014 Ukraine uprising and snipers. Zero evidence though.

Also, they fail the MH-17 test with BS like this :

https://orientalreview.org/2017/09/04/new-twist-investigation-flight-mh17/

The decoded recordings clearly showed that the missile had been fired from the zone controlled by the Ukrainian military.

No it doesn't.
They only show a picture that shows launch positions that were under control of Russian forces.

And regarding your 'DefendingHistor' twitter post, this guy refers to a report on the osce.org web site :
https://www.osce.org/pc/233896?download=true&utm_content=buffer6d130&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Which clearly states :

‘War Crimes of the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine:
torture and inhumane treatment (second report)’ was
prepared by a non-state organization ‘The Foundation for The Study of
Democracy’ (headed by M. Grigoriev) and the Russian Public Council
for International Cooperation and Public Diplomacy (presided over by
S. Ordzhonikidze) with the assistance of the Russian Peace Foundation
(L. Slutsky, Y. Sutormina), S. Mamedov, I. Morozov, E. Tarlo, D. Savelyev,
A. Chepa and other members of the Committee for Public Support of
the Residents of Southeastern Ukraine.

Which means it was compiled by Russian organizations, NOT by OSCE.

Not to mention that the report provides ZERO evidence of "literally branding people with swastikas.". Just words. No pictures, no context, nothing.

The only question I have is why do you post Russian propaganda sites on this fine forum ?

uhhh yeah, the russian propaganda arm is trash. And I honestly thought those sources would be taken with a huge grain of salt. Except, of course, CIA's own documents, which you decided you didn't need to comment on 

The problem is, you are immediately rejecting anything coming out of Russia.  Which is disgusting. Do Russians not have any agency? Are they not capable of fighting against fascism and imperialism? are they too dumb? or too drunk?

And prop-or-not is such an hilariously awful tool. My god. If you take their methodology and apply it to any nation, you'll get the exact same result.... everything is propaganda. Which, uhh, I guess is true. So, especially now more than ever, you have to be extremely critical of the news sources. The best way is to spend some time and understanding the history of a nation, and trying to create your own analysis based off of material events.  So, like in the case of Ukraine, which has WELL DOCUMENTED history of nazi collaboration, fascism, anti-russian sentiment, and American support, it's pretty difficult to do a 180 and decide everything is peachy-kean in Ukraine and all the bad stuff is actually russias fault.

Back to prop-or-not. I just love how it's run by undisclosed volunteers. American-Ukrainians volunteers.... my god. . .

Nothing in your link tells anything about "America's role in Argentina's dirty war".
There are just suggestions. Just speculation. Like "Declassifying a more extensive set of documents would also bring into sharper focus a shameful period of American foreign policy,..."
but there is no evidence yet.

I'm sure that once the evidence comes to light, the role of the US will become clear. And I'm sure there is a lot of dirt there.

Uhhh, wow. America's role in Argentina is pretty well understood at this point.... you should really take a step back before you post:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=82588&page=1

It's clear you have a poor grasp of history, geopolitics, and America's influence on the world. You should spend some time reading lots of books, and less time on sites like prop-or-not. 

[sidd]

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

O no! That site is on propornot !

Levity aside, Blum's list goes thru 1999 and is a useful antidote to wilful ignorance of history, Which, unfortunately, is exhibited by many, many US residents. As we see on this very thread.

Sometimes i think that the urge to justify or ignore the atrocities committed by the USA must grow out of a desperate need to believe in American Exceptionalism and Manifest Destiny. Or it might just be laziness. It's just easier to believe that the USA is Good, and any report of USA being Evil must be untrue. Or of course, as detailed in the Church and Pike committes, those views might be bought and paid for. The Mighty Wurlitzer is still playing very loudly.

sidd

[gerontocrat]

I worked in Ukraine for a few months in 1999. They were very open about their history, including how in WWII the Cossacks split between those who fought for Russia and those who fought for Germany. That division of loyalties exists until today and was exploited by Russia and the West, helping to create the shambles that is the Ukraine today.

Neither Russia, NATO or the EU emerge with any credit from their actions.

A plague on all their houses.

[Martin Gisser]

the American sanctions imposed on Iraq that killed half a million children.

This can now be classified as a propaganda lie.
(Seen it somewhere else, which reminded me how often it is also repeated on this forum.)

http://gh.bmj.com/content/2/2/e000311

Since 2003, however, several more surveys dealing with child mortality have been undertaken. Their results show no sign of a huge and enduring rise in the under-5 death rate starting in 1991. It is therefore clear that Saddam Hussein’s government successfully manipulated the 1999 survey in order to convey a very false impression—something that is surely deserving of greater recognition.

[Neven]

I worked in Ukraine for a few months in 1999. They were very open about their history, including how in WWII the Cossacks split between those who fought for Russia and those who fought for Germany. That division of loyalties exists until today and was exploited by Russia and the West, helping to create the shambles that is the Ukraine today.

Neither Russia, NATO or the EU emerge with any credit from their actions.

A plague on all their houses.

Well put. But people think we absolutely need to choose, and cannot condemn what is wrong on all sides. It seems we just can't evolve very much beyond tribal thinking.

[Human Habitat Index]

Gough Whitlam was "sacked" 11 November 1975

The CIA certainly welcomed Gough Whitlam's dismissal and probably played some role in making it happen. Gough was our Bernie Sanders a true progressive that terrified the conservatives by implementing policy that helped the people, Medicare, free University, no fault divorce and many more. Then there was a raid by the Federal police on ASIO a challenge to the establishment that probably still to this day shapes the response of the so called "deep state" to any perceived progressive threat. This is what possibly enabled the involvement of the CIA.     

The conservatives fought back with all means fouls or fair eventually removing him after ignoring convention on the replacement of a senator, then blocking supply (same as US gov shutdown) and manipulating the governor general into deposing the government. Then with no legitimate reason appointing the opposition as caretaker government until the election. Where the conservative media completed the coup.

This kind of fits in this thread as in this case a military intervention didn't happen but the motivations and result was the same.





 
     
 

Great summation, I included it because I experienced it and I still "maintain the rage" !

[TerryM]

the American sanctions imposed on Iraq that killed half a million children.

This can now be classified as a propaganda lie.
(Seen it somewhere else, which reminded me how often it is also repeated on this forum.)

http://gh.bmj.com/content/2/2/e000311

Since 2003, however, several more surveys dealing with child mortality have been undertaken. Their results show no sign of a huge and enduring rise in the under-5 death rate starting in 1991. It is therefore clear that Saddam Hussein’s government successfully manipulated the 1999 survey in order to convey a very false impression—something that is surely deserving of greater recognition.

The 1/2 million dead children question was posed as a supposition, and Albright answered "This is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."


http://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/28/world/world-court-supports-nicaragua-after-us-rejected-judges-role.html?pagewanted=all

The UN found that as many as 576,000 Iraqi children had died from American sanctions between 1881 and late 1995.

https://www.salon.com/2016/05/11/college_protests_revive_accusations_against_war_criminal_madeleine_albright_who_defended_deaths_of_500000_iraqi_kids/


Would you care for a link to Hillary's laughter on viewing Gaddafi's gruesome death?
Terry

[Martin Gisser]

You use the quote of f-ing ol' Albright (when did she say it?) to excuse further propagation of a propaganda lie fabricated by good ol' Saddam Hussein? Are you kidding? Or did some Russian agent turn you with some funny potion? (I'm not sure I'm kidding here.)

Would you care for a link to Hillary's laughter on viewing Gaddafi's gruesome death?

No. Would be too hypo-critical for my taste. And I don't have a video of my Libyan friend Abdul's reaction to counter it. Poor ol' Gaddafi died quick enough.

[Human Habitat Index]

Lead up to Iraq War

Two Prime Ministers One speech

[TerryM]

You use the quote of f-ing ol' Albright (when did she say it?) to further propagate a propaganda lie fabricated by good ol' Saddam Hussein? Are you kidding? Or did some Russian agent turn you with some funny potion? (I'm not sure I'm kidding here.)

Albright was Bill Clinton's Secretary of State at the time. Ancient History for many of today's children. Her blind bloodthirstiness is comparable to Hillary's, when Hillary held the same position.


Actually, unlike an apparently huge number of American Deplorables, I'm rather immune to the blather emanating from both sides. As I recall it was yourself that mentioned the hypothetical death of the 500,000 toddlers.
Oh, and Saddam Hussein didn't initiate the "propaganda", that came straight from the UN.


Would you care for a link to Hillary's laughter on viewing Gaddafi's gruesome death?

No. Because I don't have a video of my Libyan friend Abdul's reaction to counter it. Poor ol' Gaddafi died quick enough.

Is "Abdul" profiting from the ongoing slave sales in Liberated Libya?


Terry