The off topic off topic thread

[kassy]

Ever see this post which is off topic but you want to respond to it?

Or there is an interesting yet off topic discussion developing?

And said post or discussion does not fit anywhere in the subforum it is actually in then you can move it here.

[kassy]

Re: nerve gas

Seek medical help.

sidd

I agree. Nanning, i have a friend who had lets say a similar diet and very broadly similar symptoms. Go to the huisharts and get the symptoms checked.

[nanning]

Thanks for your advices.
Similar diet? For heaven's sake what do you mean by that implication?

Re: huisarts

Have done that already for several years. I've had checkups on cardio, blood, resporatory etc and now know that my health is A+ which is very nice to know. Bloodpressure at 110/70 mmHg, spirogram (lung function) much(!) better than average and heart condition much(!) better than average for my age. Standard blood sample tests gave a very strange too low vitamin D level. That was measured when I was everyday outside for more than 10 hours and getting plenty of sunshine. The physician didn't think anything of it (i.e. didn't think at all) and prescribed vitamin D which I haven't taken.
Guys, I know the source is from outside but what can a physician do other than take tests?

Disappointed.
Fact is that you do not believe and respect my analyses/experience in this. Your responses are so predictable. I have never had any other response.
You just won't face the truth of the thing and you think you know better than me in this. You haven't even asked for more arguments! Sorry but you are disrespectful here, putting yourself above me and telling me of/ignoring my 2 years of experience and my very scientific mind. That is bad behaviour but you will likely tell yourselves that it was meant good and all will be fine.
Well, except me of course, enduring daily torture in varying intensity and effects.

You could help.
I know nothing of chemistry. If one of you knows a lot about biochemistry and biocides, you could help me in figuring out what kind of gasses are able to fit all criteria.

[sidd]

Re: prescribed vitamin D which I haven't taken.

if you will ignore medical advice, i have little to say to you on the matter. Is there a reason you do not trust the doctor ?

For what it's worth, there are exactly two doctors in the USA whom i know well enuf and trust enuf not to deliver me unto the medical industrial complex. (They went thru med school while i went thru grad school, I know them for decades.) Unfortunately i suspect they will both be dead before i am.

Palliative care only, do not resuscitate is about my speed for terminal care.

sidd

[kassy]

Well nanning,

why would anybody be interested in targeting you?

Also:  Standard blood sample tests gave a very strange too low vitamin D level.

The fact that you are out in the sun a lot but still have proven low levels of vitamin D means that there is something wrong with the processing in the body.

Why not try the supplements and see if the symptoms clear up? If it works it is a rather cheap solution.

[Aporia_filia]

(I hope your feeling better nanning. If you look at  https://atmosphere.copernicus.eu/monitoring-air-pollution-across-europe  you'll find that you live in one of the most polluted places in Europe and also searching a bit more you might find links between pollution and health symptoms like yours)
((Hope you're right with your perception of stronger winds, that could help your problems considering that you are right))

Unfortunately natural sources for vitamin D are mainly animal.

[nanning]

Thank you guys for responding. That really means something to me.

Thanks for your interest and questions dear kassy.
Quote: "The fact that you are out in the sun a lot but still have proven low levels of vitamin D means that there is something wrong with the processing in the body."

Not necessarily, it can be a symptom of something else, not originating in my body.
e.g. If you breath in a heavy dosis a gas that makes you vomit and you would then go to the physician and give blood samples, it is expected that some levels will turn out not normal. That doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the processing in the body.
Do you see what I mean?

By the way, apart from never suffering from headaches, I am almost never ill. I've had the flu twice in my life, that's about it. Not allergic to anything. The varying degrees of intensity and effects within 1 day are impossible to explain away as 'something wrong with your processing'. That happens on days where have I completely similar eating/drinking/timing/sleeping patterns, so it's not ascribeable to physiologic effects that I influence.
These days I smoke from ca. 12-20PM 6-8 joints, with each smoked in >45min. I use "WhiteWidow" indica marihuana (which is the least strongest they have) and I make 12 joints from 1 gramme. (ca. 0.6gWW/day). Very low doses, streched over a long period. I have a strong discipline.
These days I drink from ca. 12-20PM ca. 6 30cl bottles of 5% lager beer, with each drunk in >60min. I take small nips. (ca. 9cl alc/day). A low dosis, stretched over a long period.

All my posts here after local time 16PM are written by me after I've had 3 or 4 beers and 4 or 5 joints!

[johnm33]

nanning are there large greenhouses anywhere upwind of your location, does it get worse when/after the sun shines, are they heated? You could try using one of those activated charcoal masks urban cyclists use, otherwise your prolonged depleted state of vitamin D may indicate problems with myelin sheathing and/or gut biome so maybe the supplements would be a good idea, what about B12 levels?. 

[nanning]

I am not ill johnm33 and there is no correlation with the circumstances you mention. I have mentioned above that my lungs are in above average health. Total Lung Capacity 8 L.
Don't you think that perhaps I've already been thinking of all things you can think about, and much more, in the past 2 years? Please guys, I know it's with good intention but think "will nanning have thought about this?" before you post these suggestions.
Thanks again for your responses. Much appreciated.

[kassy]

Well the thinking does not help so maybe look at some practical things you can do.

Standard blood sample tests gave a very strange too low vitamin D level.
Not necessarily, it can be a symptom of something else, not originating in my body.

But the most logical conclusion is that it is actually in your body. Most likely some damage in liver or kidneys. This can happen over time.

So the very first test is taking the supplements and see if that changes things.

Another interesting tests is skipping the beers because they stress those organs. But you can try the supplements first.

Basically taking the supplements will tell you if it is in your body or not.
There is no good reason not to try this test.

Also if it is a case of progressive damage (assuming you are not new to drinking) then it might also influence you in other ways.

[nanning]

"But the most logical conclusion is that it is actually in your body. "

This is not a logical puzzle. But yes, that's of course the first thing to investigate. Thanks.
This vitamin D thing was just an example. So now it's liver/kidney damage. You'd expect the blood tests to show that. More blood tests? What will you say when the tests show a heathy functioning liver and kidneys? Will you then think of other things so as to not have to think about what's happening to me every day? The torture?
That it is coming from outside of my body -- that I breath it in -- is the only remaining hypothesis because it is the only hypothesis that fits all the (calibrated) criteria. I am very experienced (verified) in finding truth.

[Henry]

Just curious. What vit D value is abnormal?
?25OH VitD ?1,25OH VitD.
Ca / PO4 / Mg / PTH normal ?
Other fat soluble vit levels (A, E, K) low.
CRP / CK checked?
Is the test done in summer or winter ?
Are you Northern European or do you have more pigmented skin?

Why was it tested?

I assume that you’re well, with no inflammatory / renal / choke static liver disease / bone issue, not on steroids or drugs causing osteoporosis. No sign of malabsorption?

Perhaps the test is just wrong - quite likely if a battery of tests was done. Or - you are similar to people living in Australia or New Zealand, many of whom are vitamin D deficient based on 25OH VitD levels.

Probably you should just rejoice in your good respiratory and cardiovascular function! Or take my mother’s advice. She encouraged her children to have a disgusting supplement. Her children managed 2-3 doses and abandoned that. Malt extract was the suggested dietary aid.
Some pleasant foods may be supplemented. Milk in US. Margarine in some countries. Oily fish has higher levels of vit D (good for heart disease too).

Running in the sun may be better than merely sunbathing too, curiously enough.

Cheers
Henry

[Aporia_filia]

This is mainly for philosophers and humanists 
The more we learn about our brain the less we know about our mind.
"The barrier between mind and body appears to be crumbling."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/19/inflammation-depression-mind-body

[nanning]

Hi Henry, to answer your questions:

Vitamin D3
   normal range: 50-250 nmol/L
   test result:  24 nmol/L
Vitamin B1
   normal range: 100-190 nmol/L
   test result: 142 nmol/L
Vitamin B6
   normal range: 50-180 nmol/L
   test result: 162 nmol/L

CRP: 3 mg/L

I don't recognize Ca, PO4, Mg, PTH or other vitamins or CK on the result sheet.

Vitamin K: I take anticoagulants since dec2013 which contain vitamin K if I'm correct.
The test was taken on 15 april 2019.
Yes I'm well and don't suffer from the things you mention. No malabsorption because I've grown a kilo more mass in a couple of days' time recently. I am 60 Kg.
I have eaten some fish recently, but not for years before the test. It's probably good to eat fish now and then but it is expensive for me.
I only sunbath in april/may and in the mornings/late afternoons during jun/jul.

Henry, it is very nice of you to care and take an interest and give that information. Thank you.
Please be aware, as stated above, that there are many criteria and symptoms so don't dive into this without all the information. It would be a waste of time I think.

Thanks again and all the best to you Henry.

[kassy]

Off-topic.

Something strange happens when children enter the culture of grown-ups. They want to belong to and copy/submit to grown-ups' groupculture and they change their behaviour radically. They lose many beautiful human characteristics. How to stop them from wanting to own everything by themselves. How to stop them from starting to look down on others who have less than they have? Empathy is an essential human charasteristic. As is sharing.

In a way growing up means changing your behaviour.

When in school you are with your parents and live by their rules.

After that you either go work or maybe you go study. So you move out and make your own live.
And you try to fit in with a group.

How to stop them from starting to look down on others who have less than they have?

It is more complicated then that.

Joe Rogan talks to William von Hippel (professor in Psychology, it´s mostly about evolutionary psychology).
Basically watch it from the start but at aroun 17m he makes the argument that studies show that those most opposed to raising the minimum wage are those earning slightly more. 

Basically all humans are in competition and they know it.

[nanning]

Thanks for your response kassy, although I disagree. I'm not going further into that subject because it's a bit too much for me. I'll keep my main 'quest' simple: Removing your civilisation bias/'bubble'. At your service. Original ideas for free!


"Basically all humans are in competition and they know it."

Nope. It is unnatural for humans. What you mean (civilisation-bias/'bubble') is: Only the civilisation human culture has competition (a power/status/wealth-hierarchy, hierarchies give competition). Uncultured children don't have that competition. We are a social species. It is in our genes. Cooperation is in our genes. It was a survival trait that made us strong. There was no competition with other nomadic tribes because there was plenty of space. I refer to the 250000bc-50000bc when our genes evolved into what we now have as species' genes. Neaderthals were also social if I'm correct.

I know it is easy to find seemingly counter-examples for individual parts of my text. But that is not what I'm trying to explain. I try to explain an idea, an understanding/true view ('bubble's) that I can't easily describe in a short text. At least I'll need people to be really curious and questioning, not to try and shoot it down at every turn but to try to see where it does hold, in which contexts, and try to see/understand what this iron-strong civilisation-bias is doing to your perception and world view.

[kassy]

Uncultured children don't have that competition.

Basically we become cultured as soon as you are telling stories. There are the big background stories (how did we get here) and also social mores. Someone posted a bit about Yanomani men having to kill before they get to be considered men. So they have between group competition and the whole lineage we came from probably had that.

Then again there is no need to remain in those constraints.

Maybe spend some time reading up on (zen) buddhism?

Its goal aligns with yours.

[nanning]

I am unable to refute the Yanomani story because I have no knowledge of that example. Please be aware that civilisation tends to write everything down in history and the non-natural sciences with a culturally influenced interpretation. It is insanity to kill other humans.
My understanding surpasses the older philisophies of understanding humans, such as 'zen' and it has put all religions in a clear context. I am not spouting just some ideas. I have a completely consistent understanding. Not on every detail because my knowledge is very limited, but the whole fundamentals of humans and living nature over time. These 'bubbles' I'm mentioning are real and powerful biases. Everyone in civilisation has them. You too. It is not a matter of intelligence. It is a matter of how your interpretation works, the fundamentals of your shared civilisation world view. I have broken through the 'bubbles' in my hermitage. I know I'm different but it must be possible to help others break through them. It is not easy and that's an understatement.


"Its goal aligns with yours."

I don't know 'zen' but can safely say that I disagree. My philisophy/understanding has no goal. It is science. I am an expert in this.
Don't you think it is a bit arrogant to imply that you know my 'goal' and what it looks like? I find it a bit condescending kassy.

[Aporia_filia]

Sorry nanning but, again, I think you are wrong.
Uncultured children, if that is possible, do compete. They play and playing is a natural non violent way of competing. Look at pets. Young dogs, cats, and any other little mammals, play and part of that game is competition.
I always loved competition as a game, but hated as a working culture.

[nanning]

Hm that's strange. You are questioning whether 'uncultured children' is even possible but know definitely for certain that they're competitive.

You're entitled to disagree, no problem.
I can't make people listen and make them curious. Why would people voluntarily mess with the very basics of their culture and world view? First you'll need to question the fundamentals of civilisation culture before you are receptive of my arguments.

[kassy]

My understanding surpasses the older philisophies of understanding humans, such as 'zen' and it has put all religions in a clear context. I am not spouting just some ideas. I have a completely consistent understanding. Not on every detail because my knowledge is very limited, but the whole fundamentals of humans and living nature over time.

These 'bubbles' I'm mentioning are real and powerful biases.

"Its goal aligns with yours."

I don't know 'zen' but can safely say that I disagree. My philisophy/understanding has no goal. It is science. I am an expert in this.
Don't you think it is a bit arrogant to imply that you know my 'goal' and what it looks like? I find it a bit condescending kassy.

Zen is very much about non action. Don´t do things that are harmful because they are harmful.
It basically teaches thinking about things clearly from a perspective of universal connectedness.

I basically just did za zen training which is just sitting in a correct posture breathing in and breathing out which is the easy part. And then you just think about nothing.

Especially if you never did that before your brain is not going to be good at it but some thought patterns are much more prominent then others. If you are trying to think about nothing not thinking about preferring Barcelona over somehwere close with just beaches is easy. Not thinking of things that actually bother you is much harder. So much so that you actually have to change them.

Zen is very much about bubble popping. 

Also there are many stories about zen hermits and your way of living reminds me of that a bit. You do the (modern version of) austerity.

It is not condescending, merely an observation and you can do with it what you want.

I could also be wrong, that is possible too but i think it would be interesting to look into it. If you are near a library you might want to look into Nico Tydemans Zen en de kunst van het zitten.

And what is your goal?

Is this true? ´I have a completely consistent understanding.´

There is internal consistency and then it needs to be consistent with the actual world.

[nanning]

Thanks for responding and for the explanation kassy.

I have already accomplished my goal way beyond anything I could have imagined. I have found reality and all 'normals'/'bubbles' from civilsation. And some bonus theories and understanding I didn't set out to find.

It would be interesting to talk to expert people from a zen philosophy group or other expert philosopher (not someone who just parrots what is written by another). I mean someone who really understands zen buddhism. Then I will see if I can change their mind if they are honest and truthful. It should be fun for me. That's what I thought until I found out about the extreme strength of biases/'bubbles'. These biases/'bubbles' distort rational arguments. Let's say that I'm disappointed and learned something and found that I have no more purpose.
I have found errors in all philisophical pieces of text I've read (not a lot) and can give arguments why there are errors, and probably explain why they made that error.

"Is this true? ´I have a completely consistent understanding.´"

Yes it is true in the context of my research. It all consistently connects. It explains it completely without needing all specifics and details. It has the power of the "evolution by natural selection" theory. Which is a law. My research is not just about humans. My morality theory holds for all lifeforms. My history of humans in living nature theory (I'm bad at names) nicely explains human species as seen from reality, from living nature. I have the most alien perspective you can find on Earth. I have left civilisation and radically changed myself to do it. People 'see' through their interpretation of visual information. This interpretation can differ enormously but within civilisation this interpretation is mostly culturally defined.

"There is internal consistency and then it needs to be consistent with the actual world. "

Yes indeed. Good observation. It is consistent with the 'actual' world: It is calibrated in reality and living nature. I know how to find truth and applied the scientific method extensively, even living it. Keep all hypotheses in flux and attack them with all new information and analysis, until one of them holds and is consistent with hypotheses from other parts of understanding. And until EVERYTHING FALLS INTO PLACE. If the whole shebang is consistent wich each sub-part from different contexts, you have really found something. It is impossible to convey my euphoria when it did fall into place. The first time a very vague view (I hardly use any human language in my understanding and hypotheses) that got stronger the more I focussed and found many resulting effects from that. Understanding one fundamental part correct and not have conventional belief, gives much more understanding in other parts. Spin-offs. Just like a physics theory that results in effects that can be measured. Calibration.
I have not finally proofread the above, sorry. My focus and short term memory are fast deteriorating I'm sorry to say. My wordblindness seems to be permanent now and it takes me a lot of time to check and recheck my text.

[nanning]

First part about reality (rest follows later)

My quest for reality: necessary minimal implemented functional representation of reality + all layers of human culture since we went outside of ecosystems (all the things civilisation culture calls normal, tradition).

A lifeform has for contact with the 'outside', simple said, a set of sensors and actuators. These need to be processed in such a way that the lifeform stays alive. This processing is done by a central or distributed brain. This brain needs to have some sort of representation of the 'outside' (reality,nature). It does this through its sensors and internally some model has been built. This model is what I call the functional representation of reality (reality='outside'). Since there are many energy-related contraints, this model must just represent those parts of reality that are 1) possible with its sensor scope, and 2) has mimimalised complexity and energyexpenditure, resources). So it is necessary that this 'model' has a minimal implementation, just enough to succesfully interact with reality, the 'outside', and stay alive.
Therefore I call it the necessarily minimal implemented functional representation of reality.

[kassy]

Joe Rogan with mycologist Paul Stamets talking about all kinds of cool fungus related stuff.

Basically listen to the first 20 minutes which are about the role fungus plays in the environment.
They are wood recyclers and a lot of the interesting ones exist only in old growth forests.

Which ofc also means we lose them when cutting down whole old growth forests.

1h48 minute also has a piece related to that with an interesting photograph (IIRC)

User pingfunk has made a list of timestamps in the comments.

[nanning]

Part 1 of reality

A lifeform has for contact with the 'outside', simply said, a set of sensors and actuators. These need to be processed in such a way that the lifeform stays alive. This processing is done by a central or distributed brain. This brain needs to have some sort of representation of the 'outside' (reality,nature). It does this through its sensors and internally some model has been built. This model is what I call the functional representation of reality (reality='outside'). Since there are many energy-related contraints, this model must just represent those parts of reality that are 1) possible with its sensor scope, and 2) has mimimalised complexity and energyexpenditure, resources. So it is necessary that this 'model' has a minimal implementation, just enough to succesfully interact with reality, the 'outside', and stay alive.
Therefore I call it the necessarily minimal implemented functional representation of reality.


Part 2 of reality

A model never has a complete representation of reality, which is impossible. If it encounters situations outside its model, its understanding of outside, it can be fooled. I see pattern recognition fail often when the model, the worldview of the brain, tries to make sense of the situation 'outside' with not enough information. For example when I wear a T-shirt with a coloured symmetric print, some flying insects wrongfully interpret it as something else, a flower maybe. In unpoilt nature these situations hardly ever occur so this fly has a complete enough model to fulfil all of its life functions and it correctly reacts to all familiar situations of the past 100my.
Human pattern recognition also has these flaws. We see human faces in animals which is clearly stupid and wrong. We see all kinds of patterns that aren't there. For example when we try to understand the behaviour of another animal we tend to project our human ways, to try to understand it in our model. It is extremely hard to objectively observe. You have to be aware of all the errors of observance outside of the perception/interpretation of your model in your brain. To be aware of the very small model humans have of outside, of reality.


Part 3 of reality

So there is an enormous amount of things happening that you're not aware of. Behaviour of other life and missing colours, slow/fast rate of change, vibrations, SMELL and sounds outside of the scope of our human sensors.
Therefore from a human perspective to find reality is to first dress our culture down from its 'bubbles', retrace civilisation's steps, until only the natural things remain. It takes a lot of effort to change your direct interpretation. Then you must find all the natural errors of your brain, the inconsistencies with natural thinking and its unawareness of many things because its model is a necessarily minimal implementated functional representation of reality. It is important to be aware of all the information-lacking shared 'bubbles' you are in. That awareness has to be integrated in your direct interpretation. Then you've found human reality.

edit: theory by nanning

[Ranman99]

And just for fun:

IT IS NOT. If you are an infinite point knowing all knowns (and knowing through a creature, say like a Homo Sapiens Sapiens) :- You can build models in your memory of what that might look like. The analogy of the sun looking for the source of the light. Of course you soon know that infinite means dimensionless. It is not possible to make a model of it or grasp it in the thought. You can spin endless analogies that are very poor approximations of what that really entails.

What knows thought is outside of thought (well not really because it is it really isn't, but for purposes of the discussion can be viewed that way).


Thought can't know IT and thoughts are really just memories anyway they don’t really have an independent existence or mean anything at all apart from how the creature has been programmed to BELIEVE them.

So everything stated so far is akin to reality being all made up. Some folks have plastered human attributes over this thing like it is an independent power apart from it interested in its affairs. It is not like that.

You can't sub divide the infinite it is at the "bottom" all things. It is not a human thing. It is an everything thing. Humans thriving, growing, inventing commerce and going extinct are just processes like mountains forming. It is way cool what is happening and that is just the way it is. No real meaning, no good or bad. Infinite fun!!

When your creature in thought spins out i.e. the infinite loop in the program "hey no thought is TRUE, real but not TRUE, no belief is TRUE, real but sometimes not so real even ;-)

Well then what then. The creature does not get anywhere and the infinite dot certainly has not moved or changed in any way ;-)

It all continues to play like a movie on an infinite screen. The characters are on the screen and so are the thought bubbles. It is just the way it is. All kinds of things appearing and disappearing forever. No meaning in it. Maybe entertainment ;-)

However there is a kicker. IT IS NOT RANDOM. THERE ARE RULES JUST LIKE GRAVITY. There are rules at the level of thought. They will affect the dreamed reality. As one crazy ass says Maya has a sense of humour and it is very different from yours.

Using the term Maya in a nonsensical way of course!!! ;-)

Have an awesome day all!!!

The show must go on. Who would have thought there would have been Pink Floyd in our life time!! It is the damnedest thing ;-)

[kassy]

This planet would be more fun if we all had become stoics.

Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy which was founded by Zeno of Citium, in Athens, in the early 3rd century BC. Stoicism is a philosophy of personal ethics informed by its system of logic and its views on the natural world. According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness) for humans is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly.

The Stoics are especially known for teaching that "virtue is the only good" for human beings, and that external things—such as health, wealth, and pleasure—are not good or bad in themselves (adiaphora), but have value as "material for virtue to act upon". Alongside Aristotelian ethics, the Stoic tradition forms one of the major founding approaches to Western virtue ethics.[1] The Stoics also held that certain destructive emotions resulted from errors of judgment, and they believed people should aim to maintain a will (called prohairesis) that is "in accordance with nature". Because of this, the Stoics thought the best indication of an individual's philosophy was not what a person said, but how a person behaved.[2] To live a good life, one had to understand the rules of the natural order since they thought everything was rooted in nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

[wili]

I like the Stoics, but I really like Diogenes the Cynic.

He took: "..."in accordance with nature". Because of this, the Stoics thought the best indication of an individual's philosophy was not what a person said, but how a person behaved. To live a good life, one had to understand the rules of the natural order since they thought everything was rooted in nature..."

a few steps further...

...[Diogenes] used his simple lifestyle and behaviour to criticize the social values and institutions of what he saw as a corrupt, confused society. He had a reputation for sleeping and eating wherever he chose in a highly non-traditional fashion, and took to toughening himself against nature. He declared himself a cosmopolitan and a citizen of the world rather than claiming allegiance to just one place. There are many tales about his dogging Antisthenes' footsteps and becoming his "faithful hound".

Diogenes made a virtue of poverty. He begged for a living and often slept in a large ceramic jar, or pithos, in the marketplace. He became notorious for his philosophical stunts, such as carrying a lamp during the day, claiming to be looking for an honest man.

He criticized Plato, disputed his interpretation of Socrates, and sabotaged his lectures, sometimes distracting listeners by bringing food and eating during the discussions...

...Diogenes maintained that all the artificial growths of society were incompatible with happiness and that morality implies a return to the simplicity of nature. So great was his austerity and simplicity that the Stoics would later claim him to be a wise man or "sophos". In his words, "Humans have complicated every simple gift of the gods."...[/i]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes

[kassy]

He also had an interesting view on burials.

But looking back he is interesting but possibly rather annoying if you were Plato.
Looks like he was Tpollivg him. 

[wili]

Indeed!

[nanning]

I think the philosophies of Diogenes and the Stoics are very good from your quotes. Thank you for posting.
I took those ideas a bit further and made it more general so my theory validates that kind of philosophy/behaviour/culture. My theory is a sort of blueprint. I have several theories and above I mean my general morality theory.

Those were the days, just walk into Plato's classes and make your own philosophy and have your own different behaviour. And others write it down for posterity.

Anyway it's not important because, just like Jezus setting a good example, people don't change their behaviour accordingly and don't live like those philosophies advise. The generalisation breaks with me (by my own philosophy) and probably some others who are living without any (hidden) supremacy.

Did I make you curious or did I irritate you?
Don't envy me. 

[nanning]

In my mini compost bin (NL: GFT-emmertje) there's a plant growing. It's clearly visible through the fog of small flies .
This small bin gets emptied ca. every 2 months.
I wonder what kind of plant it is. It must be from some vegetable I have eaten. Kale? Sprouts? Onion?

[blumenkraft]

Yes, draconian measures taken by a ruthless dictatorship regime work.
Draconian measures are not applied in democratic, and somehow undisciplined countries like Spain and Italy until their health systems crumble down. Then I guess even Spain will pull the military to the streets.

What is a pity is that nobody valued to be prepared (not the same as panicked) and societies have been always two steps behind the problem.
Fucking MSM been saying until last week that this is not more than a flu. Suddenly many news explaining this is not the flu!
There are many similarities with the climate problem here.

Well.  I guess sometimes having a psychopathic Supreme Leader helps.

Boldened by me.

Bk opens his mouth every time I post an opinion, so he's just trolling me.
Sure I quit the politics here. But politics play a big role how governments (mis)manage the crisis. It is a conflict between halting production and society or halting the virus. The Chinese chose wisely, to quit economy for a hiatus, but also because they can, being an authoritarian regime. That's all

Gandul, if you can't stand that your opinion is questioned, maybe you shouldn't display your opinion publicly like that?

Speaking of opinion, is it one, or are you just parroting what you heard on CNN?

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

― Harlan Ellison

[KiwiGriff]

Posted here rather than the battery thread in reply to nanning

The term Year Zero (Khmer: ឆ្នាំសូន្យ chhnam saun), applied to the takeover of Cambodia in April 1975 by the Khmer Rouge, is an analogy to the Year One of the French Revolutionary Calendar. During the French Revolution, after the abolition of the French monarchy (September 20, 1792), the National Convention instituted a new calendar and declared that date to be the beginning of Year I. The Khmer Rouge's takeover of Phnom Penh was rapidly followed by a series of drastic revolutionary de-industrialization policies which resulted in a death toll which vastly exceeded the death toll which resulted from the French Reign of Terror.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(political_notion)

Cambodian Genocide

Lasting for four years (between 1975 and 1979), the Cambodian Genocide was an explosion of mass violence that saw between 1.5 and 3 million people killed at the hands of the Khmer Rouge, a communist political group. The Khmer Rouge had taken power in the country following the Cambodian Civil War. During their brutal four-year rule, the Khmer Rouge was responsible for the deaths of nearly a quarter of Cambodians.

The Cambodian Genocide was the result of a social engineering project by the Khmer Rouge, attempting to create a classless agrarian society. The regime would ultimately collapse when the neighboring Vietnam invaded, establishing an occupation that would last more than a decade. 

https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/cambodia

[nanning]

Thanks for explaining KiwiGriff.

An agrarian society is not what I had in mind.
What I have had in mind is to first go back to our consumption patterns of the 1970's and then to the 1950's. At the same time Improve the systems by completely thinking them through with equality for humans and living nature in mind.
Start to live with less. Be frugal.
If I can do it, why not others? Remember, your grandparents weren't living in a cave and weren't missing anything either.

See the Earth with its resources, and civilisation with its wealth and technology as 1 big pie. Then make sure you are not taking more than your equal share.

I don't own land. I don't own a house or other property. I don't own a car. Little energy and potable water use. No affluence.
I think I'm quite advanced in not taking more than my equal share.

[wdmn]

Nanning,

I agree that living frugally is something we should all do. Bikes are better than cars when traveling short distances, etc.

But, in 1970 annual CO2 emissions from Europe were higher than they are currently, as were emissions per capita.

Global emissions per capita have mostly been flat, but world population has increased by over 5 billion since 1950 and 4.8 billion since 1970.

Growing population means your piece of the pie gets smaller and smaller.

[blumenkraft]

Sorry, Nanning, i too think you are wrong on this one.

In the 70s and even in the 80s, the Rhine river in Germany was a dead, toxic, stinking pile of chemicals with no fishes at all. Swimming in it was a serious health issue. There was acid rain literally destroying the forests. Breathing the lead-filled smog made your cognition decline.

Not good times...

[nanning]

Of course we can't go back in time guys.

What I mean is that the personal consumption patterns of the rich world have to become more and more frugal. People in the 70's were doing with less and in the 50's even more so. There was less inequality and less waste.

I gave these decades not as a template but to let you see that not so long ago rich countries' people were more frugal.

The Earth desperately needs our de-growth! Undo the great acceleration.
Perhaps an age-of-reason will return as a bonus. Together will restored social functions.
Renewable electrical energy is important. With much lower energy use, a lot of coal and gas powerplants can be closed. Many destructive and polluting industries can stop when there's no demand. I think that it's is not difficult to understand.

[kassy]

Thanks for using/promoting this! 

[nanning]

That's very nice to read kassy. A very good morning to you.

[kassy]

Ducks and people in Utrecht NL

So in the Weird weather thread i posted about how our local ducks just kept breeding through what was winter on our calendar. Last reported ones in december. I think they did skip january but another bunch came early february. I did not report this because while this is actually early over the historical record it was not that crazy looking at the last decade.

Now it´s april and over course there is another bunch.

And we are in lockdown. People can go out as long as they adhere to distancing. I have the vague impression that a little more people are on the streets now just because staying at home kind of drives you nuts eventually. No big crowds but just people going for a walk.

And then they meet these cute ducks. Momma duck sitting there with all the little yellow fluffies going squeek squeek. They are cute.

So the next step is people thinking oh lets feed the ducks.

And we feed ducks by giving them little pieces of bread.

Off course little pieces better be small but some people just chuck whole leftover sandwiches at them. Parts get eaten by the ducks, the leftovers are there for the rats.

So yesterday i was watching the ducks and a guy comes over and feeds them a bit. Less then an hour latter another guy comes up and he walks way to near them and throws way to much bread there. And this is on top of all kinds of pensioners having way too much bread on offer while another guy always goes to feed the pigeons somewhere by the canal and sometimes you see leftovers (which become rat food instead of pigeon food).

All of these people think they are doing a great thing. Feeding little babies.

But actually they are not doing that. There is no need to feed ducks unless waters freeze over for a long time (which has not happened last few years). Then off course pieces of bread are not their optimal food. They need bugs and stuff.

What they are actually doing is force feeding kindergarters on french fries with plenty of mayonnaise.You would be pissed of if someone would be doing that to your kid.

And worse they are leaving that all over the place so it acts as rat food.

Bottom line: many people doing something ´good´ which is not actually good really hurts. And it is a rather hard nut to crack. Basically it is lack of education but many involved are beyond educating. 

PS: To anyone fearing i will be swamped by ducks don´t worry because when they feed the little ducks they actually feed the rats twice. No idea who nets the most between rats, cats and raven but the off season survival rate was close to 0 or 0.

[blumenkraft]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[KiwiGriff]

 Often they chuck the bread in ponds which rots as a result breeds bacteria that then kills the ducks and all the pond life.

https://ourauckland.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/articles/news/2018/1/help-us-fight-avian-botulism/

During the warmer summer months ducks at parks and waterways across Auckland can succumb to avian botulism, a bacterial disease which lives in soil and can cause the death of water-based birds.

Auckland Council Head of Operational Management & Maintenance Agnes McCormack says:

“This is a reoccurring issue for many of the parks around Auckland. Avian botulism spores exist in lakes and ponds, and thrive when temperatures rise and oxygen levels drop. Ducks ingest the bacteria when they feed. The disease causes paralysis to the ducks and, depending on toxicity levels, death. It does not affect humans, cats or dogs.

“Though the disease can affect a variety of bird life, ducks and swans are more susceptible.

“To counter Avian botulism, we are increasing the installation of barley bales in affected ponds to reduce algae growth and improve water quality, and regularly monitoring sites where there has been issues in the past.

“We will also be installing signs at affected parks to educate park users about avian botulism, and to encourage them not to feed ducks bread – especially in the water. It is better to encourage ducks to forage for their food naturally. Alternately, ducks should be fed on the grass away from the lakes and with grain and seeds rather than bread.”

How you can help
Avoid feeding the ducks, it is better to encourage them to forage naturally.
Don’t feed the ducks bread, it can rot in ponds and promote the growth of botulism bacteria.
If you do feed the birds, seeds and grains are best for their diet.
Pick up your pet’s waste and dispose of it properly.
Call the council when you see a sick or dead duck or swan.
Share this message with friends and family.

[GrauerMausling]

Sorry, I don't know how to quote properly when moving to a new thread

/Quote

Quote from: blumenkraft on April 14, 2020, 09:27:43 AM

    The ice crystals on your chicken emerge due to you opening the freezer door once in a while and letting warm moist air in which then freezes when you close the door. I think this is another phenomenon, Freegrass.

No, that's something else. That doesn't explain why my chicken in a sealed container is drying out. The ice crystals in the closed container do come from the chicken, not from opening the door and letting moisture in.

/ Unquote

The answer from Blumenkraft is of course rubbish as you were talking about a closed container where your chicken is in. So there is no vapor from the outside. And honestly I also think that the problem is quite relevant for the arctic but I moved it here to be on the safe side :-).

What I think is happening:
The partial pressure of ice is still not zero. So the water / ice will sublimate and there will be water vapor in the box with the chicken even in the freezer. Usually in a freezer the temperature rises very slowly until the freezer starts to cool again which will be a lot faster. For the box this means that during the time when the freezer is not cooling the temperatures of the chicken and the box are quite similar and both will loose water at basically the same rate. When the freezer starts to cool again, the walls of the box are colder than the meat - as the cooling is quite fast - and more water vapor will condense on the walls. So, during the time when the temperature rises, both, chicken and container walls loose the ice at roughly the same speed, while during the cooling down the walls gain more ice that the chicken, causing a net move from chicken to the walls.

For the arctic, as the vapor pressure of ice is still quite high close to the freezing temperature, there could by a significant loss if the air is really dry.

[kassy]

Nice answer GrauerMausling.

How to quote moving threads (for when you want to discuss something OT in a certain thread in a more OT thread or in desperation here).

I would opt for very interesting and also quite hilarious if it pans out.
Not doing this long ago was probably due to computing power constraints?

above i quoted my last post (which is not that interesting but post #531 in that thread is recommended for people with an interest in physics).

The quote always displays person you quote and a link to the original post and the full body of the text you quote.

Long repeat quotes are annoying (in general) and irrelevant bits can be removed before reposting especially redundant graphics and videos since anyone can just jump to the link.

Since you are moving a topic to a more on topic post at least the whole part that was on topic for the original could be snipped. Removing big graphics and autoloading videos saves bandwidth or energy. If the original contains a pertinent video you could mention that in the reply under the quote.

[Sigmetnow]

Sorry, I don't know how to quote properly when moving to a new thread
...

For anyone who is puzzled about the mechanics of quoting to a new thread, here’s one method:

Use the “Quote” button on the post you want to quote.
In the message box that appears, use your Select All, then Copy or Cut all the text.
Hit your Back button to exit from the posting screen.
Navigate to the new thread.
Hit the Reply button to bring up a new message box.
Paste the quote text into the message box.  Edit as needed; if Preview looks wonky, assure you have matching [ quote ] and [ /quote ] html tags.
Add your new text after the final [ /quote ] tag. (You may need to scroll down to see it.)

[nanning]

To add: you can fill in the 'author' descriptor in the 'quote' function by hand if you don't need the date and hyperlink to it.

Example:

Code: [Select]

[quote author=GrauerMausling] ... [/quote]

[kassy]

So when taking a break i go and sit in the sun. The skies are really blue with no contrails because sometimes there is nothing mechanical flying around while normally you always see the old stripes and 1 or 2 new ones being formed.

The only thing in the air is birds.

Quite a wonderful sight. 

[kassy]

I have been thinking of writing a novel based around the year 2100 that takes place in a prison colony in the Canadian arctic after a political upheaval of some sort in North America.  This would take place in a scenario of climate change that has not been mitigated by any coordinated policy response (i.e. business as usual). 

I'm trying to decide where the prison colony would logically be situated.  The main requirement for story purposes is that it would need to be somewhere in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago, i.e. off of the North American mainland. 

The general idea is that the prison colony would have a central hub with guards' quarters, a port, power plant, district heating, dorms, and other central facilities in which the inmates would stay for the winter season, but there would also be scattered homesteads for each inmate in the surrounding countryside on which they might be allowed to go off and more or less do their own thing during the warm season.  Therefore, I'm looking for a spot that would have the potential for:
1. Port facilities.
2. River.
3. Southerly enough to have potential for making transition from tundra to taiga climate by 2100, and possibly supporting some farming.

The one thing that piques my interest is the division between the winter and summer seasons. How would that actually work or rather why do they need to do that?

Then the whole place might be purpose built so you can have a port as long as you are near a river.

Not sure about 3 but if it is a high northern farming projects you can have them use greenhouses over purposefully built up soils.

[Comradez]

True, if one is doing greenhouse farming, then it would make sense to stay near the central hub all year long.