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Phoenix

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The American Progressive Movement
« on: April 16, 2020, 01:12:39 AM »
Now that Bernie Sanders has endorsed Joe Biden for President, the American Left is in transition.

At 78, Sanders is almost certainly too old to run for POTUS in the future and the process of iterating to a new generation of progressive leadership is under way.

The near term interests of the left are:

1) negotiating with the Biden campaign / Democratic establishment for as much as possible in return for pledges to support progressive policy ideas.

The more militant voices on the left (Jimmy Dore, Joe Rogan, Kyle Kulinski, etc. ) are not in favor of supporting Biden and are interested in the possibility of trying to destroy the corporate Democratic establishment via a Biden loss.

The more establishment voices on the left (such as Sanders) are playing "good cop" and offering an endorsement of Biden in advance of policy concession and signaling that stopping Trump is alone a
sufficient condition for offering that endorsement.

The middle ground on the left is being maintained by people like AOC and Cenk Uygur who are acknowledging the work that Biden needs to do to generate the enthusiasm necessary to motivate progressives to vote for him.

At this point, Biden has made relatively little concession and his initial overturwe were panned by the militant left as inadequate.

His adoption of $15 min wage is already a consensus opinion among Democrats.

His proposal to reduce Medicare eligibility from 65 to 60 was described by AOC as an "insult" and further right than Clinton's proposal to reduce the age 50 in 2016. The establishment choice in 2020 is further right on health care than the 2016 choice.

His proposal to make public university tuition free for families earning under $125K is probably the most substantive concession. Basically the plan that Pete Buttigieg campaigned on and much more prone to being undermined down the road than the universal programs that Sanders and Warren campaigned on.

Climate policy will obviously be one that will be scrutinized heavily.

2) Sustain motivation for down ballot candidates

The progressives have had a few small pickups with the election of Marie Newman to a congressional seat in Chicago and the election of a WI Supreme Court Justice. There are a lot of progressive candidates remaining in races to come and that would represent good topics for this thread going forward.

Some high profile races such as Nancy Pelosi vs. progressive Shahid Buttar in San Francisco are not likely winnable, but important for establishing the depth of progressive support and pressuring neoliberals like Pelosi to at least compete for votes.

3) Iterating to new leadership and increasing youth participation.

Sanders will remain an important and credible figure on the left simply as a result of inertia. He has been a heroic figure in terms of helping build a coalition on the left, but he has not been able to lead them to the promised land in terms of implementing transformative policy.

Nature abhors a vacuum and the left will be looking for a new alpha dog to represent their interests. They aren't content to settle for the scraps and they know that demographics are on their side. Young people in America are overwhelmingly progressive. Unfortunately, too many of the young people are tuned out of participating.

Someone like AOC with her nearly 7M twitter followers is poised to be a force in progressive politics. Liz Warren destroyed her progressive credentials by kneecapping Bernie in the primary and will never be trusted again.

4) Continuing to build progressive media outreach.

The difference in the 2020 primary was clearly the combination of free corporate media on behalf of Biden and establishment politicians like Obama and James Clyburn moving the levers of influence on behalf of Biden.

The US corporate media will not embrace progressivism. They are an obstacle that must be overcome.

5) Post-election activism

Progressives need to maintain their pressure on the government after the 2020 election. The only way to achieve some of their objectives is through strikes.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 01:46:05 AM by Phoenix »

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 01:20:54 AM »
The more militant voices on the left (Jimmy Dore, Joe Rogan, Kyle Kulinski, etc. ) are not in favor of supporting Biden and are interested in the possibility of trying to destroy the corporate Democratic establishment via a Biden loss.
Do they realize that four more years of Trump would mean that the supreme court will probably end up with a 7-2 conservative majority for many years to come? And that this would destroy any progress on the climate and any other important matter?

Four more years of Trump is unacceptable...
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 02:00:51 AM »

Do they realize that four more years of Trump would mean that the supreme court will probably end up with a 7-2 conservative majority for many years to come? And that this would destroy any progress on the climate and any other important matter?

Four more years of Trump is unacceptable...

For the most part, they fully understand the disaster that Trump represents.

I would liken the situation to a game of chicken. Every cycle, corporate Democrats give progressives the same choice. A corporate Democrat who gives them nothing or a disastrous Republican.

As long as progressives go along, the corporate Democrats control everything and yield nothing to progressives. Progressives have no power other than their ability to veto the corporate Democrat.

For the poor American youth who can't afford to buy a home, raise a family, are looking forward to climate Armageddon and drowning in student debt, they are looking at a disaster w/o significant relief. If the corporate Democrats are unwilling to meet them halfway, then they don't have as much to lose from a Trump presidency. They already have a disaster.

If would be the height of stupidity for the young progressives to hand over their votes w/o gaining something in return. They are 40% of the Democratic Party electorate and they have zero power in the Democratic Party. It's Biden's job to move in their direction.

There is an african proverb that goes something like this:

"If the village does not embrace the child, the child will set the village on fire and bask in the warmth".

The child is America's young and poor. The village is the Democratic establishment. Trump is the fire.

Not sure if you are American, but the plight of America's working poor is crappy and increasingly desperate.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 02:14:38 AM »
Remember the Tea Party? That was a movement that completely changed the GOP. So I would tell American progressives to go for Biden, but make sure that you've got all the right progressive candidates for congress. Once you have those votes in congress, you've got a lot to say!  ;)

Quote
Not sure if you are American, but the plight of America's working poor is crappy and increasingly desperate.
I'm Belgian, but I've had MSNBC on 24/7 for the last 5 years now. Since the day Trump did his Simpsons elevator thing. So I'm up to date on American politics.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:24:21 AM by Freegrass »
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 02:30:04 AM »
Remember the Tea Party? That was a movement that completely changed the GOP. So I would tell American progressives to go for Biden, but make sure you've got all the right progressive candidates for congress.

Quote
Not sure if you are American, but the plight of America's working poor is crappy and increasingly desperate.
I'm Belgian, but I've had MSNBC on 24/7 for the last 5 years now. Since the day Trump did his Simpsons elevator thing. So I'm up to date on American politics.

MSNBC is corporate propaganda for the 50+ crowd. They are hard anti-left. They don't cover climate change. They gain credibility by opposing Trump and brainwashing people that the enemy of the enemy is actually their friend. The parent company of MSNBC (Comcast) is an American villain.

90% of American's want net neutrality as a policy. Comcast lobbied against it. Guess who won? Spoiler - Comcast won.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2020, 02:43:18 AM »
MSNBC is corporate propaganda for the 50+ crowd. They are hard anti-left. They don't cover climate change. They gain credibility by opposing Trump and brainwashing people that the enemy of the enemy is actually their friend. The parent company of MSNBC (Comcast) is an American villain.
I know. MSNBC - and more particularly Morning Joe - helped Trump get elected. They broadcasted every Trump rally, but none of the Democrats rallies. It was Trump 24/7, and that hasn't changed a bid. They almost completely ignore the Democratic race.

But because it's corporate media, they represent the people in power. And so to learn the system, you have to watch MSNBC. That's how you learn best how corrupt your system is...

I also watched a lot of Fox before, but that's becoming increasingly unbearable...

You're country is seriously ill! First thing on the agenda when Obama had 60 senators, should have been election reform, but he failed at that just like he failed at so much...
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
-The Dalai Lama

wili

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2020, 02:49:22 AM »
Freegrass wrote: "You're country is seriously ill..."

Who are you talking to? Phoenix just said he was from Belgium.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2020, 03:03:41 AM »
Freegrass wrote: "You're country is seriously ill..."

Who are you talking to? Phoenix just said he was from Belgium.
No, it's me who's from Belgium. Look again!  ;)
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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wili

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2020, 03:31:35 AM »
Ah, the quote function confused me there.

But yeah, the US is truly and utterly f'ed and is in the process of doing the same to the rest of the world (or at least more intensely and blatantly than it has for the last few decades).

I hesitate to say, "But at least Trump hasn't gotten us into a major new war" 'cause he still has a few months to do so, and if he thought it might help his reelection campaign, I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate to do so.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2020, 03:48:57 AM »
I hesitate to say, "But at least Trump hasn't gotten us into a major new war" 'cause he still has a few months to do so, and if he thought it might help his reelection campaign, I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate to do so.
No, all Trump wants to do right now is to play Golf and hold rallies. He's sick and tired of being locked up in the White House. The man never had an honest job in his entire life until the day he mistakenly got elected.

And that's the only reason why he wants to end the lockdown now; He wants to go have party. He has absolutely no interest in actually doing some work... That takes effort...

Just think about this.
Fox is now saying that China created this virus. If that indeed is the case, then that would mean that The President Of The United States Of America was unable to protect his country against a biological attack from his biggest rival, China.

The man didn't even retaliate against Iran when they bombed an American base and injured many American soldiers. Let me say that again. Iran bombed American Soldiers, and Trump did nothing...
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 04:09:54 AM »
Um....this is a new thread about progressive politics in the US. Trump is a factor to be considered, but he has his own thread and gets more than enough attention. His awfulness is acknowledged and and considered.


Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2020, 04:15:54 AM »
Um....this is a new thread about progressive politics in the US. Trump is a factor to be considered, but he has his own thread and gets more than enough attention. His awfulness is acknowledged and and considered.
True. My apologies! But I guess its unavoidable that His Ugliness pops up when you start talking about American politics...
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
-The Dalai Lama

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2020, 05:23:50 AM »
Examples of left media distancing themselves from Bernie's endorsement of Biden










« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 05:32:07 AM by Phoenix »

Pmt111500

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2020, 09:03:39 AM »
To me, Biden is worse than H. Clinton was and likely chooses an eqaully bad VP. Either of the main party candidates may kick the bucket during their future lordship, so it comes to the choices on Vice-royalty. Drumpf will have it easy to best Biden. He just demands fealty whereas Biden requires to think for yourself. It's easier to not think of the things you won't get under either if you just go in the 'yes, my liege (leech)'-mode.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2020, 01:06:17 PM »
To me, Biden is worse than H. Clinton was and likely chooses an eqaully bad VP. Either of the main party candidates may kick the bucket during their future lordship, so it comes to the choices on Vice-royalty. Drumpf will have it easy to best Biden. He just demands fealty whereas Biden requires to think for yourself. It's easier to not think of the things you won't get under either if you just go in the 'yes, my liege (leech)'-mode.
I understand you. What happened with Bernie, is horrible. But try to forget about that now. That race is over, and you can't change it. What matters now is congress. Focus on that, and don't waste time with regrets.
Quote
Remember the Tea Party? That was a movement that completely changed the GOP. So I would tell American progressives to go for Biden, but make sure that you've got all the right progressive candidates for congress. Once you have those votes in congress, you've got a lot to say!
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
-The Dalai Lama

blumenkraft

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2020, 01:12:15 PM »
I'm done being invested in US politics. Still interested though.

Here are some interesting views!


Pmt111500

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2020, 01:39:52 PM »
Pretty much same here, Blumenkraft. Biden and company, if he wins, have to earn the trust again after this Dumpf.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2020, 02:37:30 AM »

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2020, 09:53:16 PM »
Climate is at the center of the American Progressive agenda. The left is putting the pressure on Biden and he's moving...at least in rhetoric.

https://heated.world/p/biden-signals-a-climate-shift

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2020, 02:36:00 AM »
Krystal Ball articulating very well the psychic trade-offs for the left in not supporting Biden.


Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2020, 01:58:52 PM »
Biden is courting progressives by moving let on climate. Yesterday, he held a 30 minute streamed conversation with Al Gore.


The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2020, 04:07:47 PM »
While climate change has shown to be a subject of increasing concern to the voters, it will likely be downplayed this election cycle.  Polling shows that the greatest concern (not surprisingly) this year will be the spread of infectious disease.  Climate change came in 6th, sandwiched between China's and Russia's power and influence.  Still, it is a vast improvement over 2012, when less than half of Americans viewed it as a major threat.  Concern for the climate has increased 25% since 2012, while concern about China's growing increase has risen 40%, and concern for infectious disease and the global economy have increased over 50%.  Those last three issues (and possibly Russia) will be the major concerns this election cycle.  That is where Biden needs to concentrate his campaign, if he wishes to move into the Oval Office.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/04/13/americans-see-spread-of-disease-as-top-international-threat-along-with-terrorism-nuclear-weapons-cyberattacks/

blumenkraft

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2020, 04:38:50 PM »
Concern for the climate has increased 25% since 2012, while concern about China's growing increase has risen 40%

Amazing what brainwashing can do...

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 12:06:19 AM »
Bernie interview with Ali Velshi of MSNBC.  Setting some guidelines for Biden on how he can appeal to progressives.

Reduce Medicare eligibility to age 55 and cover all children.

Biden has indicated support to reduce eligibility to age 60 (current is 65) and has not mentioned children.

https://www.msnbc.com/ali-velshi/watch/sen-bernie-sanders-our-best-outcome-is-to-go-forward-in-the-direction-of-medicare-for-all-82566725944

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2020, 12:21:50 AM »
While climate change has shown to be a subject of increasing concern to the voters, it will likely be downplayed this election cycle. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/04/13/americans-see-spread-of-disease-as-top-international-threat-along-with-terrorism-nuclear-weapons-cyberattacks/

I'll take the counterpoint on this. If you peer into your attached Pew polling article, climate is the high ranking issue in which the GOP and Democrats have the greatest contrast and offers the most comparative upside for the Democrats to pursue.

88% of Democratic voters think climate is a big issue vs 31% of Goopers. Democrats should be targeting that 31%.

Also, we have a forecast for a warm summer and busy hurricane season. Climate is a rising issue.

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2020, 01:30:49 AM »
While climate change has shown to be a subject of increasing concern to the voters, it will likely be downplayed this election cycle. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/04/13/americans-see-spread-of-disease-as-top-international-threat-along-with-terrorism-nuclear-weapons-cyberattacks/

I'll take the counterpoint on this. If you peer into your attached Pew polling article, climate is the high ranking issue in which the GOP and Democrats have the greatest contrast and offers the most comparative upside for the Democrats to pursue.

88% of Democratic voters think climate is a big issue vs 31% of Goopers. Democrats should be targeting that 31%.

Also, we have a forecast for a warm summer and busy hurricane season. Climate is a rising issue.

Personally, I do not think they have a chance at that 31%, anymore that the GOP has a chance for the 12% of Democrats.  The independents are the key, and climate will be but one issue this year, albeit with less emphasis that it would have received.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2020, 02:54:46 AM »
While climate change has shown to be a subject of increasing concern to the voters, it will likely be downplayed this election cycle. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/04/13/americans-see-spread-of-disease-as-top-international-threat-along-with-terrorism-nuclear-weapons-cyberattacks/

I'll take the counterpoint on this. If you peer into your attached Pew polling article, climate is the high ranking issue in which the GOP and Democrats have the greatest contrast and offers the most comparative upside for the Democrats to pursue.

88% of Democratic voters think climate is a big issue vs 31% of Goopers. Democrats should be targeting that 31%.

Also, we have a forecast for a warm summer and busy hurricane season. Climate is a rising issue.

Personally, I do not think they have a chance at that 31%, anymore that the GOP has a chance for the 12% of Democrats.  The independents are the key, and climate will be but one issue this year, albeit with less emphasis that it would have received.

Why would a Republican who believes that climate change is a problem have a hard objection to Biden after a few cat 5 landfalls this season and epic heatwaves. They don't all have a death wish.

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2020, 02:51:06 PM »
While climate change has shown to be a subject of increasing concern to the voters, it will likely be downplayed this election cycle. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/04/13/americans-see-spread-of-disease-as-top-international-threat-along-with-terrorism-nuclear-weapons-cyberattacks/

I'll take the counterpoint on this. If you peer into your attached Pew polling article, climate is the high ranking issue in which the GOP and Democrats have the greatest contrast and offers the most comparative upside for the Democrats to pursue.

88% of Democratic voters think climate is a big issue vs 31% of Goopers. Democrats should be targeting that 31%.

Also, we have a forecast for a warm summer and busy hurricane season. Climate is a rising issue.

Personally, I do not think they have a chance at that 31%, anymore that the GOP has a chance for the 12% of Democrats.  The independents are the key, and climate will be but one issue this year, albeit with less emphasis that it would have received.

Why would a Republican who believes that climate change is a problem have a hard objection to Biden after a few cat 5 landfalls this season and epic heatwaves. They don't all have a death wish.

I guess if they believed and it was their top priority, then they would have no problem.  I suspect that is not the case.  On the flip side, what do you think would happen to the believers if we had few lanfalling hurricanes and an average summer?

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2020, 02:41:47 AM »

I guess if they believed and it was their top priority, then they would have no problem.  I suspect that is not the case.  On the flip side, what do you think would happen to the believers if we had few lanfalling hurricanes and an average summer?

Big hurricane landfalls are a low frequency event. The absence of them wouldn't mean as much as the presence of a cluster.

Average summer? What does an average summer even look like anymore?  The GHG blanket is getting thicker. The heat has to go somewhere. Covid is eliminating a lot of the entertainment activities which keep people distracted from whats going on. I think they are going to notice.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2020, 02:18:10 PM »
I think Dems should avoid making Climate Change a politically divisive issue. They should target the other 69%, not as potential voters but as people who should be concerned about AGW. Everybody is affected or will be affected by this issue.
The 31% may see AGW as primary concern, but avoid voting Dems because of abortions, gun control, religion, and whatever.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2020, 02:24:38 PM »

I guess if they believed and it was their top priority, then they would have no problem.  I suspect that is not the case.  On the flip side, what do you think would happen to the believers if we had few lanfalling hurricanes and an average summer?

Big hurricane landfalls are a low frequency event. The absence of them wouldn't mean as much as the presence of a cluster.

Average summer? What does an average summer even look like anymore?  The GHG blanket is getting thicker. The heat has to go somewhere. Covid is eliminating a lot of the entertainment activities which keep people distracted from whats going on. I think they are going to notice.

I would say that an average summer has what we have been experiencing in the U.S. for the past several years.  The GHG blanket is effective only during the colder months, retaining heat, and preventing its escape.  During summer, the blanket actually works to block some of the incoming solar radiation.  See the following for changes in temperature extremes over the past century or so:

https://science2017.globalchange.gov/chapter/6/

While the entire country has experienced a decrease in cold spells, and the coldest temperatures have increased throughout, heat waves have diminished and the warmest temperatures have actually decreased slightly.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2020, 04:26:48 PM »
The Walrus, are you in any way related to past users Klondike Kat and/or Daniel B.?

And are you aware your stats are highly skewed by the Dust Bowl? And that the one stat you picked does not tell the whole story? Because there has been warming in summer and not just in winter.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2020, 04:57:09 PM »
Funny, that is the second reference to Klondike kat.  Perhaps that is because that is where I got this reference.  Not familiar with Daniel b.

Yes, the dust bowl decreased the temperature change in summer, but it also decreased the temperature change in the winter.  The only warming in summer is in reference to the cold period in the 1960s and 70s, "Since the mid-1960s, there has been only a very slight increase in the warmest daily temperature of the year."  The last year on their chart (2016) was still cooler than the beginning of the data in 2001.  Even apart from the dust bowl of the 1930s, their heat wave chart shows higher values in 1901, 1912, 1924, 1952-54, and 1980, than in recent decades. 

At least the stat that I picked tells the story from the beginning to the end, and not just from the lowest period in between.  That appears to be a larger skewing of the data. 

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2020, 05:00:57 PM »

 The GHG blanket is effective only during the colder months, retaining heat, and preventing its escape. 

The GHG blanket is quite effective at retaining heat in the summer.... at night.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2020, 07:22:23 PM »

 The GHG blanket is effective only during the colder months, retaining heat, and preventing its escape. 

The GHG blanket is quite effective at retaining heat in the summer.... at night.

Quite true.  However in summer, night only constitutes about one-third of the day.  The effectiveness at preventing incoming heat constitutes the other two-thirds.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2020, 05:18:09 AM »
  The effectiveness at preventing incoming heat constitutes the other two-thirds.

I have no clue what you are referring to here.

There is no meaningful heat that is prevented from entering the biosphere by the GHG blanket.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2020, 02:33:56 PM »
  The effectiveness at preventing incoming heat constitutes the other two-thirds.

I have no clue what you are referring to here.

There is no meaningful heat that is prevented from entering the biosphere by the GHG blanket.

Perhaps this can best be explained visually.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-reference-terrestrial-solar-spectrum-according-to-IEC-60904-3-in-comparison-with_fig2_286458934


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Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2020, 03:32:59 PM »
I think you are misreading that graph or what it says.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/01/calculating-the-greenhouse-effect/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/the-co2-problem-in-6-easy-steps/

Sorry, but I could not find anything in your links about the effects on incoming solar insolation during summer daylight hours or how I am misreading the graph.  Please expound.

oren

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2020, 06:14:34 PM »
I would recommend continuing this in some more appropriate thread, as the American Progressive Movement is protesting the hijack.

be cause

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2020, 06:39:00 PM »
as a progressive Irishman , I agree with Oren .. we need to allow the 'APM' space . b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2020, 11:28:06 PM »
Back to politics. Here's an article from Jacobin addressing the desire for Bernie to provide some leadership in charting the way forward and identify a successor to Our Revolution.

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/4/our-revolution-bernie-sanders

kassy

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2020, 12:57:19 AM »
I think you are misreading that graph or what it says.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/01/calculating-the-greenhouse-effect/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/the-co2-problem-in-6-easy-steps/

Sorry, but I could not find anything in your links about the effects on incoming solar insolation during summer daylight hours or how I am misreading the graph.  Please expound.

Explain in words what you think the graph you posted above means in this context.

PS: Since there is hardly any true progressive US movement and none of that is discussed here anyway i don´t mind science highjacking a fake political discussion. Its funny to see it in reverse for a change. Also the whole thing could be split of and dumped into the OT OT thread.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2020, 01:08:27 AM »

Since there is hardly any true progressive US movement and none of that is discussed here anyway i don´t mind science highjacking a fake political discussion.

Wow. Such contempt from a moderator.

kassy

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2020, 01:32:18 AM »
Why do you read that as contempt?

If you read up on the political history you see any third groups get absorbed back in. And of course many times when there were 3 groups there was a split in one of the power parties so that does not count as a progressive movement.

If you want a true progressive movement you have to organize it without the lure of wealth. It should be bottom up and it should not pander to existing power structures.

Whatever the left of the democratic party is doing has no actual bearing on a true progressive movement so lets not pretend there is one.



 

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2020, 01:57:56 AM »

Whatever the left of the democratic party is doing has no actual bearing on a true progressive movement so lets not pretend there is one.

So, was FDR a progressive in your view?

blumenkraft

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2020, 09:30:55 AM »
Phoenix, from a European standpoint, FDR is what we would call a Social Democrat. This is the center-left here. There is a brought spectrum on the left of that like the environmental parties, the Marxists, and many more. Most of them are represented in actual political parties.

In the US, FDR is the most leftist thing you can find. There are no parties left of that. Never have been.

But i disagree, Kassy, when you say there is no progressive movement in the US. There absolutely is, but they are very tiny, not organized in parties. Heck, even the unions are oftentimes compromised and corrupted.

Every right-winger in the US is making a living out of being a right-winger. That's not the case for any other movement personnel. When the whole system is corrupt to its core, it's hard to fight against that.



The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2020, 03:27:34 PM »
I think you are misreading that graph or what it says.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/01/calculating-the-greenhouse-effect/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/the-co2-problem-in-6-easy-steps/

Sorry, but I could not find anything in your links about the effects on incoming solar insolation during summer daylight hours or how I am misreading the graph.  Please expound.

Explain in words what you think the graph you posted above means in this context.

PS: Since there is hardly any true progressive US movement and none of that is discussed here anyway i don´t mind science highjacking a fake political discussion. Its funny to see it in reverse for a change. Also the whole thing could be split of and dumped into the OT OT thread.

I try to answer this question in light of the tread topic.

The incoming solar radiation spectrum displayed ranges from ultraviolet to the near infrared.  Several absorption bands are shown in the near infrared, which start at 700 nm, corresponding to carbon dioxide and water.  Both of these gases have been increasing since the start of the industrial age, and increased concentrations will increase absorption of infrared radiation at the corresponding wavelengths.  This decrease in solar insolation is evident in temperature data during the summer, as detailed in the paper for United States temperature changes over the past century and graphs of DMI Greenland temperatures. 

<Please reply to this part here >> https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2814.msg262117.html#msg262117 --- BK>

Phoenix posted why would a Republican who believes that climate change is a problem have a hard objection to Biden after … epic heatwaves.  I responded that the U.S. has not experienced epic heatwaves in recent decades, and was posting a reference to support that contention.  Indeed, the heat wave index reported was higher in the first decade of the 1900s than the 2000s (before the dust bowl era). 

Hence, I do not feel that this summer's weather will have any influence on Republican voters.  Biden is by no means a progressive.  Some could argue that his climate stance more closely resembles moderate Republicans than true progressives, due to his lack of support for the green new deal.  This may help him in this election, as I do not believe that the climate will be a major issue in the November election. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 03:35:07 PM by blumenkraft »

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2020, 05:15:51 PM »
Essential workers trying to organize a strike at Amazon, Walmart and a few other large companies

https://www.the-sun.com/news/750448/amazon-walmart-target-fedex-instacart-protst-coronavirus/

blumenkraft

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2020, 07:10:44 AM »
America, Third-Parties, and Where From Here? ft. Dustin Guastella