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Ktb

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The Alt Right
« on: October 09, 2020, 04:40:27 AM »
13 men have been arrested, state and federal officials announced conspiracy, terrorism and weapons charges.

6 of the men created a detailed plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitemer, extradite her to Wisconsin, and put her on "trial". Likely outcome of the trial would be execution.

The men planned to blow up a bridge in order to distract police during the attempted kidnapping.

The men regularly participated in military style weapons training, and on at least 2 occasions attempted to build IEDs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/08/us/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-militia.html


The Radical Left: Hey we want everybody to have healthcare!

The Radical Right: Let's kidnap and kill a governor.
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Hefaistos

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2020, 10:21:23 AM »
Why should this criminal act be mislabeled with a thread called 'alt-right'?

"In 2017, Hawley noted that the alt-right was not a violent movement, but that this could potentially change.[425] From their analysis of online discourse, Phillips and Yi concluded that "rather than violence, most Alt-Right members focus on discussing and peacefully advocating their values".[261] They added that presenting the alt-right as a violent, revolutionary movement, or equating all alt-rightists with the 1488 scene, was "an intellectual failure akin to treating all Muslims or black nationalists as radicals and terrorists", also noting that it served as a "rhetorical tactic" for progressives."

wikipedia

The linked article from NYT also doesn't mention alt-right.

Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2020, 11:49:15 AM »
Violence is the logical conclusion to an ideology of hate.

Take it as you will.
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gerontocrat

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2020, 12:47:16 PM »
Hullo Moderators

- please get this thread off the unread posts list.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2020, 03:43:14 PM »
What does "alt-right" mean?
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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2020, 04:47:42 PM »
Hefaistos: perhaps I should have named it Alt Right violence or something of that ilk. My intention was to create a mega thread for the alt-right and their activities.

Tom: trolling, feigning ignorance, or a genuine question?
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2020, 05:34:38 PM »
A genuine question. Is it something which bydefinition involves violence? Does the term even have a rigorous definition?
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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2020, 03:59:30 AM »
Okay I'll humor you, although I doubt anybody on this forum does not have an idea of what the alt-right is and what alt-right means.

Alt-Right --- term coined by Paul Gottfried in 2008 after a paper published entitled The Decline and Rise of the Alternative Right. The term has been widely popularized and turbocharged by noted white supremacist Richard Spencer (seen here being punched in the face because ya know, nazis gonna nazi).

Admittedly, the term is "ill-defined" but generally refers to a the loose collective of groups which espouse and support ideas of white nationalism, white supremacism, white separatism, anti-immigration, pro-racism, anti-zionism and anti-semitism, holocaust denial, antifeminism, trans-phobia, homophobia, and islamophobia. Wow not a great list to be attached to. Groups using the self-appointed alt-right label are generally characterized as HATE GROUPS.

So now we know something of what the alt-right is, and some of what it believes. This is not a comprehensive list but I am happy to provide further studies if you or anybody else desires.

Violence --- Does the alt-right, by definition, involve violence. In my view American Conservatism is violence. The alt-right is a step further and so has to be more violent. Notably, my definition of violence may be different than yours.

The trajectory of the alt-right is to gently guide its followers further and further down the rabbit hole, swallowing red pill after red pill. With the majority of members being white, cis-het, males, the red pills swallowed tend to be about jewish conspiracies, holocaust denial, downplaying of slavery and the crusades, that feminism is about crushing men rather than elevating women to where men currently stand, sandy-hook truthers, reverse racism, economic precarity being caused by immigrants, and so on.

Many, I am sure, are aware that having a nebulous "other" to unite against is a compelling rallying cry for people. The alt-right provides many such "others" to rally against. The alt-right also, curiously, utilizes the fascist rhetoric that the nebulous other is simultaneously all-powerful and weak/unfit/sub-human (examples include Mexicans are coming to take our jobs, but Mexicans are also lazy; Jewish people control essentially all major corporations and governments in the world, but are also sub-human. Take your pick, there are many options.)

With the "other" provided, hatred abounds. Take 5 minutes to go browse /pol/ on 4chan, or save yourself the pain and trust me. Hatred and fear lead to violence. An excellent example of this is that hate crimes against Asian-Americans have been on the rise during the covid19 pandemic -- so much so that scientists have published journal articles about it). So once again, with an "other" provided (and that "other" including but not limited to women, LGBTQ+, immigrants, muslims, jewish people), fear and hatred flow. Young, white, cis-het men are told they are valuable for being white and cis-het. They are left to froth in their own anger. Violence follows: there has been an explosion of alt-right hate groups as tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center -- 55% increase in white nationalist hate groups since 2017 and 43% increase in anti-LGBTQ+ hate groups in 2019 alone. And according to the SPLC hate crimes reached a 5 year high in 2015 as Trump marched towards the White House. According to Justice.gov hate crimes in 2017 reached numbers not seen since 2008, 2018 down slightly from 2017 and 2019 numbers not out yet. Another fun fact: for years provided by justice.gov, the year with the highest hate crime rate was 2001. Hmm, I wonder what happened that year for it to see such a spike?

The alt-right is a breeding ground for "lone wolves". If a person is unable to escape from the clutches of the alt-right there are generally 3 outcomes: nihilism/the black pill, becoming a "lone wolf", or joining a "militia" group or other hate group whose violence that person finds tolerable (i.e. "I find actually harming people to be too much for me, but I don't mind screaming racial slurs at hispanic American citizens and telling them to go back to their country.")

Edit: I would also like to add that among those who commit "lone wolf" type violence, many evoke reverence for the memes, hand signals, gestures, hashtags, and common talking points/phrases that the alt-right traffic in. We know that the alt-right radicalized him, the issue becomes did the alt-right tell him to do that. And generally the answer is no. There was no single directive issued by the alt-right to go out and shoot people. I would argue this is more plausible deniability on the part of alt-right leaders. They have clearly been enticing young men towards violence. But stopping short of saying lets go murder people, they cannot be charged with anything.

And another caveat: you can find videos of alt-right leaders talking on their podcasts/radio shows actually advocating for murder.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 04:14:40 AM by Ktb »
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sidd

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2020, 06:06:27 AM »
Is it necessary to advocate all of "white nationalism, white supremacism, white separatism, anti-immigration, pro-racism, anti-zionism and anti-semitism, holocaust denial, antifeminism, trans-phobia, homophobia, and islamophobia" or just a few of them or any of those positions ?

For example, i know people who are against immigration into the USA. Some of them are melanin challenged, and some are melanin endowed. But they are not particularly in favor of any of the the other items on that list.

Are those people labelled "alt-right" in this nomenclature ?

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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2020, 07:43:36 AM »
I wrote those things because that is what alt-right groups tend to espouse and show support for.

The presence of a single one (or several) of those beliefs in a person does not make that person part of the alt-right. I would argue that the presence of a single one of those beliefs likely makes that person an asshole if sincere, and misinformed if not. I think there is also a sliding scale: being transphobic but generally supportive of other people and other rights just kind of makes you a jerk (this being as trans rights are generally newish on the larger political scene, many are still unfamiliar with trans people and trans rights. However similar to gay rights, in 10-20 years hopefully trans people are as accepted as gay people -- acknowledging that gay people still have a ways to go for full acceptance in mainstream culture). Being a full blown white supremacist makes you an absolute fuckhead.

My father has been leaning further and further right as he has aged. He now regularly posts anti-immigrant, anti-feminism, transphobic, and homophobic views. I would consider him both an asshole and a member of the alt-right. He has also surprised me occasionally by commenting in appropriate ways about the murder of George Floyd and the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. He has a gay brother who has been married since it was legalized, yet my father wants gay marriage overturned. Edit: People are complicated -- the above is reinforcement that you do not have to hold all of the above beliefs.

You do not have to join a specific group (sic hate group) in order to be a member of something/part of a movement. I firmly believe that the only reason my father has not joined one of these armed "militia" groups is that he is an old man in mediocre health.


I don't know your friends. I will say that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that shows that immigration is good for an economy. Immigrants pay taxes while not receiving many social benefits. Immigrants do not take jobs from citizens. Immigrants are overwhelmingly law abiding (similar to how citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding). The majority of "illegal aliens" in the United States year after year are from people who came to the states legally with a visa and then did not leave the country when that visa expired. Not people crossing the border as a horde or caravan or any other fear mongering term used.
Your friends may be anti-immigration for whatever reason, but if they are not bigoted against Mexicans, people from Central America/South America I doubt they would cross into alt-right territory.

There is also a difference between "I think people should come to the USA legally, and those who are running from violence seeking asylum should be welcomed with open arms" and anti-immigrant views as written in previous comments vis a vis "go back to your country, we don't want you here", "this is America, speak American", etc.



Sorry for the long and winding post. I hope that answers your question sidd.


Edit: Additional note: The alt-right's anti-immigration mindset is a thin veil for racism. When they say they are anti-immigration what they typically mean is they are anti-brown people from Central and South America. They do not advocate for increased policing to pull over white people who might be from Europe. Nobody talks about tightening security at the US-Canada border (the longest border in the world) even as illegal crossings have been rising sharply.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 08:19:26 AM by Ktb »
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Aluminium

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2020, 08:02:21 AM »
I doubt anybody on this forum does not have an idea of what the alt-right is and what alt-right means.
Everyone should learn even obvious somewhere. I did not know, for example.

Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2020, 08:21:40 AM »
Yes absolutely correct Aluminium, I should not assume. Thanks for reading
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etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2020, 09:51:17 AM »
Maybe you already heard this "poem" :

Quote

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

This really is the issue, I think everybody has some tendency to find the differences annoying, and it is what the Alt-Right type of group use to convince more people to follow them, to pull on a string and slowly transform people's view of the wold. If you would directly see the final picture, you would be so choked, but with a lot of work and of time, most people can change their point of view, or think that the goal is more important than the way to get there.

Unfortunately, politics is only about the way to get there, because the goal is the same for everybody, to bring health and happiness to everybody living on a limited territory (USAID promoting development abroad is also about providing a peaceful world for the USA, and about providing markets for US products).

So it is very important to protect the difference.

Looking at the fruits of a politician is way more important than to listen to what he says. The way is the goal.

sidd

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2020, 10:00:20 AM »
I deal with a lot of people. Some of those who are anti-immigration are assholes for various other reasons, some are misinformed, some are neither.

Let me paraphrase the argument of a black pastor in a bad neighbourhood in a rust belt town.

"We can't take care of our own people. There's kids starving a block from me. There's shootimgs and suicides and overdoses every night. Why would you want more people coming to suffer like us ? The rich folk who run the country, they dont care about us already, they aint gonna care about immigrants with fewer rights than us blacks living here have."

"I know that some of these immigrants have it worse than us where thay came from. But we can't save the world right now, we can't even take care of everyone living here. First we got to fix our own problems, you dont invite company when your sewer is spilling shit into your home."

"The only reason the bosses want immigration is to keep wages down.  The meatpacking plant here hires undocumented immigrants is because they'll put up with crap the black community here won't. The money goes up and the misery comes down."

(That meatpacking plant was the source of one of the largest COVID outbreaks in the state.)

What would you say to that pastor ? Personally, i just try and send him a truckload of farm produce for his foodbank when i can.

sidd

etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2020, 10:10:10 AM »
The problem is not the immigrant, it's the boss. So the issue is not to stop immigration but to get reasonable wages for the workers.
An Alt Right solution will only provide even more power to the boss who probably as connections with these groups, a Martin Luther King Jr solution could bring real solutions.
It's a hard way to go, and I guess what we all can do is, as much as possible, to buy local, organic and fair trade.
When you buy products of major corporations, you know where the money goes. With local, organic or fair trade products, you may hope that it helps where it is most needed.

Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2020, 10:51:38 AM »
Yes, as etienne described the problem is not with workers/the working class, but with those with institutional power.

Make no mistake, the wealthiest nation that has ever existed has the capacity to feed its’ hungry, has the capacity to house its’ homeless, has the capacity to provide healthcare to its’ citizens.

To say that you are against immigration because we cannot provide for our own (as I will freely admit I thought for many years growing up) is a falsehood.

The question to ask then is what if there is zero immigration and still we do not feed our citizens, still do not house our homeless, still do not provide healthcare to all? Do we expel citizens? Some fascists would say yes.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 11:01:35 AM by Ktb »
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etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2020, 11:02:21 AM »
The question to ask then is what if there is zero immigration and still we do not feed our citizens, still do not house our homeless, still do not provide healthcare to all? Do we expel citizens?

Of course yes, that's what the poem is about, first the socialists, than the trade unionists, than the jews, than me. Most of the time, the next task is started before that the one before is finished.

Well, I still believe that we are all "guilty" regarding the actual situation. Politicians are elected, and we also chose to buy products of companies that don't treat correctly their workers.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2020, 12:56:06 PM »
Is there any existence of an “alt Left”?
Also, I must be an alt Right by Ktb’s definition. The Crusades saved Christianity from Islam. If Ktb thinks our society is oppressive try living in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Trans people are mutilating the body that God gave them. Gay people are committing Mortal Sins that will send them to Hell if they do not repent. Yet Jews, African descended people, Hispanics etc are as human as you and me and have just as many rights. The Shoah is a historic fact as sure as Trump’s 2016 election.
I follow the Catholic Church, not any “Left” or “Right”.
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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2020, 01:30:22 PM »
Interesting how god can make intersex animals (https://twitter.com/aventuraobscura/status/1314150808141864962?s=21) but not intersex humans. There are so many examples of intersex, bisexual, gay, or other animals but when it comes to humans it’s “abomination”.

I do think Iran, Saudi Arabia and other religious theocracies are oppressive. Don’t be delusional.

Ah good to follow the Catholic Church since the pope himself has positive things to say about LGBTQ+, has things to say about climate change.
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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2020, 01:43:59 PM »
AGW is the second greatest issue of the day. LGBTQ+ are still human. Humans are not another animal species we are human, not squid, starfish, earthworm or otherwise sexed organisms.
And as for violence, a “Christian” who murders an abortion doctor will end up lower in Hell than the doctor, because he has besmirched Jesus’ Holy Name.
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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2020, 01:52:48 PM »
This thread is on the alt-right. I am happy to discuss your “murder” views in the appropriate abortion thread.

All I will say on topic is about the “white genocide” fake hypothesis. The idea that where other races spread, whiteness has to be maintained is insanity.
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etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2020, 02:16:59 PM »
AGW is the second greatest issue of the day. LGBTQ+ are still human. Humans are not another animal species we are human, not squid, starfish, earthworm or otherwise sexed organisms.
And as for violence, a “Christian” who murders an abortion doctor will end up lower in Hell than the doctor, because he has besmirched Jesus’ Holy Name.
God's Mercy is unlimited and anybody can turn back to him. Please remember it before organizing Hell and Paradise. I believe that abortion is one of the few sins where most people really show repentance.
Anyway, it is out of topic.

There was an Alt-Left, but it was in the 60' and 70', some still in the 80', with money provided by the USSR. That's an old story.  Remanent are for example the guerilla in Colombia, drugs are also a good source of money for alt left and right. What's happening in Venezuela, I would describe it as Alt Nationalism. I don't really know if it is left or right, but it is the concept of getting back national wealth in national (friendly) hands.

The left has a problem when they concentrate on people, when they miss the fact that the boss is part of a system and not a specific person. Non violent opposition has always been against oppressive systems, not against oppressors.

Added :
Just like with abortion, the doctor is not the issue, but the fact that the girl is pregnant (because of a rape, of a lack of education, of whatever is the issue), and why do we have such a social pressure that adoption can't be an issue for most cases ?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 02:22:10 PM by etienne »

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2020, 02:29:03 PM »
My point was that I renounce violence for all issues, even my personal bugaboo obsession.
Of course you can repent any sin before death (except whatever blaspheming the Holy Spirit is?).
So the alt Left is extinct in 2020?
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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2020, 03:28:20 PM »
Renounce whatever you want. I post two 1000+ word discussions on the alt-right and tom decides the only thing to focus on is abortion.

Which to specify once again, is only a minor minor focus of the alt-right.
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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2020, 04:13:26 PM »
No, the thing I was focusing on here is violence. I renounce all political violence. For any reason.
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etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2020, 05:17:15 PM »
The alt left might not be fully extinct, you still have some guerilla in Colombia, but what's left is not much compared to the alt right.

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2020, 10:05:35 PM »
My point was that I renounce violence for all issues, even my personal bugaboo obsession.
Of course you can repent any sin before death (except whatever blaspheming the Holy Spirit is?).
So the alt Left is extinct in 2020?

Good post Tom, and no they are not extinct.  Recent violence accompanying the protests shows that.

Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2020, 03:02:07 AM »
Briefly on the "alt-left": The term alt-right was created by the alt-right. The term alt-left was, unsurprisingly, created by the alt-right. It is used as a smear.

Quote
The scholar of public affairs Thomas J. Main commented on the alt-right by saying: "They don't think blacks and Jews should have equal rights. On the left, there is nothing analogous"

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol-alt-left-20170816-story.html

So everybody should understand, at least in modern America, there is no alt-left. Any attempt to shift the discussion to the "alt-left" is disingenuous and should be treated as such.
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sidd

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2020, 07:46:03 AM »
Re: there is no alt-left

Where does deep green resistance lie in this nomenclature ?

sidd

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2020, 09:22:04 AM »
There can't be an alt left because the term is new and we don't have a violence problem on the left political side.

Maybe we will see some alt right people trying to motivate some leftists to do something violent, just to scare people before the elections.

Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2020, 09:33:09 AM »
It is my understanding that the deep green movement is generally more about return to hunter-gather society and the total collapse of industrial society. Thus I would consider deep green groups to be anarchists -- although I do not like the term because of its negative connotations.

I may be incorrect and welcome feedback.
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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2020, 11:57:46 AM »
How do the riots that occurred after the George Floyd murder fit into this?
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wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2020, 12:02:43 PM »
‘Umbrella Man,’ seen on video smashing windows of Minneapolis store at protests, was white supremacist trying to incite rioting, according to police affidavit

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-george-floyd-unrest-umbrella-man-20200728-j5dwkcthcfg7djdsctcvr7thcq-story.html


George Floyd protests in Pa. being hijacked by white supremacists, state official says

https://www.timesonline.com/story/news/local/2020/06/02/george-floyd-protests-in-pa-being-hijacked-by-white-supremacists-state-official-says/112781346/

A white supremacist channel on Telegram encouraged followers to incite violence during police brutality protests by 'shooting in a crowd,' according to internal DHS memo

https://www.businessinsider.com/white-supremacist-telegram-channel-encourages-violence-george-floyd-protests-2020-6

Trump frequently accuses the far-left of inciting violence, yet right-wing extremists have killed 329 victims in the last 25 years, while antifa members haven't killed any [up to that date]

https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7

and on and on and on...
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 12:10:53 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Steven

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM »
Any attempt to shift the discussion to the "alt-left" is disingenuous and should be treated as such.

It's the usual trolling by Tom_Mazanec.  That guy has been spouting far right-wing propaganda all over this forum. 

I'm glad I live in Western Europe and not in the USA.  Here in Belgium we had an openly gay prime minister a few years ago and now we have a transgender minister, and nobody had a problem with that.  And we have very liberal laws on abortion, euthanasia etc.  I cannot imagine any of that happening in the USA: there would be nonstop protests from right wing religious zealots.

Unfortunately, the far right-wing party here in the rich northern part of Belgium has been steadily gaining support in recent elections and polls.  They're thriving on anti-immigration rhetorics.  They're pretty much the same people spouting conspiracy theories, climate denial and anti-science, and they are increasingly derailing facebook and twitter threads.  Not as bad as in the USA, but it's becoming increasingly worrysome.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2020, 01:14:41 PM »
Obviously the Left is made of the same species as the Right, so a phenomenon on the Right can also occur on the left. Even in the George Floyd protests, 93% have been peaceful according to Wikipedia so 7% have not been. Some of that is, as wili points out, false flag stuff from the Right, but I doubt all of it is.
Funny, I’m called Right Wing here and on Alt-Hist forum and Left Wing on RHJr.’s forum. My cousin guardian calls me a Liberal and I used to have fights straight out of All In The Family with my father, with me playing the Meathead and him Archie, till I just let him be and only talked about what we agreed on.
I am not Right or Left, that is why I left the GOP.
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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2020, 03:47:44 PM »
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Critics who demand peaceful demonstrations are saying, whether they admit it or not, that the correct way to protest is to let a heavily militarized police force that has already demonstrated its willing to murder people in full view of the public beat them shitless. They are not wishing for nonviolence; they are stating a preference for whom the violence should happen to.

- Ian Danskin (Innuendo Studios)

 
Quote
A riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.

- Martin Luther King Jr.

Quote
I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor.

- Mahatma Gandhi
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etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2020, 03:53:48 PM »
How do the riots that occurred after the George Floyd murder fit into this?
I would say that most riots occur when people are angry, demonstrate and loose control. Nothing to do with any alt-right or left.

On the other side of the road during the George Floyd riots, it seems like the alt-right was well organized. The main problem with riots is how they are used by organized groups to gain power and influence, this is why I believe that non violence is the only way out, and it is required if you want to be heard by all the people who don't really care.

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2020, 05:38:07 PM »
I see, Ktb. You oppose violence from the Right, not from the Left.
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wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2020, 05:56:10 PM »
Sooo, if the vast amount of political violence is on the right (as the above links show), and you're against all violence, shouldn't you be spending the vast amount of your time here criticizing right wing violence? Not to mention the massive violence unleashed by the police. Most of these can be characterized as police riots, since they were the ones who escalated the violence massively.

And note (again and again and again) that at least some of the most visible violence (arson in particular) in George Floyd protests were instigated by the far right.

:::::::::::

etienne, as one living right in the middle of the main protests and riots in Minneapolis, I can say that you are spot on. It is well documented, and I saw with my own eyes, that well organized rightwing folks fomented much violence. But also, once it was clear that the cops had mostly abandoned the station and the area, local gangs and people just looking for free stuff (neither of which were part of the earlier protest, pretty much took over the area
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 06:27:02 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2020, 06:09:44 PM »
Right wing violence is wrong. Left wing violence is wrong. In the US, they seem to be different in quality...Right more organized, for example. I don't know what the relative quantity is, though I suspect they are roughly comparable right now, and were more right wing, say, last year.
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wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2020, 06:33:08 PM »
False equivalence.

It's as if Tom, seeing a woman being abused by her husband for years, suddenly is outraged by violence when the wife finally starts fighting back once, and then claims 'Violence form the man is wrong; violence from the wife is wrong.'

I have already supplied you with plenty of evidence that the quantity if violence is overwhelmingly on the side of the right wing racists.

You choose to ignore the obvious even when it is presented directly in front of you (do you know, it is really quite easy to research these things yourself, if you are actually interested in knowing the truth, right?)

When I see a tad more authentic interest in seeing the truth, I will engage further.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2020, 06:56:38 PM »
Actually I expect most of the violence is neither Left or Right...not political at all.
I's drug lords fighting each other, muggings, assaults...mostly done for reasons not having anything to do with politics.
And the violence, while it has been rising the last couple years, is nothing like it was in the ACW, or in Europe in the World Wars. The scary thing is worrying about it getting that bad again.
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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2020, 07:38:49 PM »
I have refrained from commenting on what I see as a US problem.
We don't have large numbers of far right nutbars running around with guns spurting freedum rhetoric. A ban on semi auto rifles was instituted with the support of over 90 percent of mp's after the shooting in Christchurch.   
 A politicians religion or sexuality is not part of the political discourse here.  Our prime minster had a baby out of wedlock after being elected. We have a referendum on euthanasia this election that will pass with a large majority. Abortion is legal and not one significant political party would campaign on trying to change that.

Jesus was a socialist yet in the USA many of his followers are right wing greedy capitalists and proud of it . 
I think the USA has been corrupted by one party using topics such as abortion to promote divisions. Tom has been captured by the culture wars to vote against the precepts of his religion.
He votes on one issue and ignores the huge disparity between the teaching of Christ and the implications and outcomes of his political standpoint.   



 
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2020, 08:19:34 PM »
Actually I expect most of the violence is neither Left or Right...not political at all.
I's drug lords fighting each other, muggings, assaults...mostly done for reasons not having anything to do with politics.
And the violence, while it has been rising the last couple years, is nothing like it was in the ACW, or in Europe in the World Wars. The scary thing is worrying about it getting that bad again.
Maybe you're right, but political violence is something specific because it targets people who are totally innocent, and is done in order to gain power. It destroys democracy, and once the violent one is installed, it is quite difficult to get him out.

The violence of criminal organizations is something that a democratic society should be able to control, even if it is not always easy.

I'm living in Europe, so I can't testify about what's happening in the US, but in the news over here, we only see political violence  coming from the alt-right, excepted sometimes people reacting to planned provocations.

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2020, 09:40:16 PM »
... worth the read of the entire piece ...

Our Consensus Reality Has Shattered: A Whirlwind of Uncertainty Is Stirring Up Extremism
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2020/10/whirlwind-uncertainty-landed-us-year-and-its-stirring-extremism/169174/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/year-living-uncertainly/616648/

... When no clear, authoritative source of truth exists, when uncertainty rages, human nature will lead many people to seek a more stable reality by wrapping themselves in an ever-tighter cloak of political, religious, or racial identities. The more uncertainty rises, the more alluring that siren call becomes. And some Americans are responding by seeking out exclusive, all-encompassing identities that are toxic and fragile—and hold the seed of violent extremism.

... “Knowledge resides in consensus, rather than in any transcendent or objective relationship between a knower and that which is to be known,” ... The more people who agree on a fact, the more we understand it to be real.

Objective reality is presumed to exist, and it may enforce its strictures tangibly—for instance, through COVID-19 death tolls and hospitalizations. But objective reality is apprehended through consensus. We do not set out, individually, to count the dead. We trust others to do it for us. When our enveloping social consensus agrees that 200,000 Americans have died, it becomes a fact. It becomes real.

Perhaps most importantly, the nature of the consensus depends on who you know. Even today, surrounding yourself with people who believe that the world is flat is eminently possible. The more people you know who believe it, the more likely you will believe it as well. But if you move, or make new friends, the consensus may again change around you.

The instability of the consensus has always presented a challenge, but in today’s globally networked world, realities collide around us every day, sometimes dramatically—even violently—opposed in their verdicts on values, opinions, and facts.

... How much engagement does it take to make an alternative fact credible? One hundred thousand retweets? Fifty thousand likes? Ten thousand shares? These numbers were within reach for virtually everyone, and even they are overkill. For some people, seeing 100, 50, or 20 is enough. In a small group—a chat room or a Telegram channel—affirmation from 10 people might be sufficient to tilt someone toward violence, because consensus is more powerful when it is found among others you trust. We listen most closely to chat members, friends, family, and colleagues. We value most dearly the opinions of people from the same neighborhood, or from the same religion, or from the same race.

... Some people are better at living with uncertainty than others and can navigate a landscape of contradictions more comfortably. But most of us will seek to reduce uncertainty by turning to the people we trust the most: people who are like us, people with whom we can identify, what social scientists refer to as an in-group.

The in-group is not a designation of power or popularity. It’s simply your group. Anyone who’s not in your group is part of an out-group. ... We identify with in-groups because we understand that they are filled with people like us—who hold similar opinions, listen to similar music, enjoy similar foods. Because they’re more like us, we relate to them more easily and agree with them more often than we do members of our out-groups.

A related effect is equally venerable, but less understood. People who associate with in-groups tend to develop negative attitudes about out-groups. We like our music and don’t like theirs. Our food is good; theirs is not as good. This often extends to the quality of the members: Our people are better than they are.

... in-groups don’t necessarily develop negative feelings about out-groups, even when the groups are competing for resources or status. As the social psychologist John T. Jost has demonstrated, people usually favor maintaining the status quo over changes that might benefit their in-group, an effect called “system justification.”

However, when the status quo is upended, as in a civil war, people experience massive uncertainty. When the status quo collapses, there is no system to justify. But even short of societal collapse, the system-justification impulse can fail. What happens when the status quo is not just beset by uncertainty, but is itself the source of uncertainty?

That’s when things get ugly.

... During times of great uncertainty, our need to make the world real and know what is true becomes much more urgent, and we can satisfy that need by immersing ourselves ever deeper in an in-group that offers a clear, authoritative consensus.

The social psychologist Michael A. Hogg found that feelings of uncertainty make people more likely to strongly identify with in-groups.

Michael A. Hogg, et.al, Extremism and the Psychology of Uncertainty, Applied Social Psychology Series Book 9

But Hogg’s findings go further. People who are experiencing uncertainty tend to assign a higher value to the in-group’s most distinctive traits, such as skin color or religious practice. They are attracted to in-groups with rigidly defined rules and boundaries, and to in-groups that are internally homogenous—filled with people who look, think, and act in similar ways.

More destructively, people who are experiencing uncertainty tend to develop hostile attitudes toward out-groups, seeing them as threats, and entertaining dark fantasies of hostile actions toward the hated other. Some in-group members may go beyond fantasy, engaging in acts of violence, terrorism, even genocide. They gravitate toward social movements that are bigoted, hateful, and authoritarian.

They become extremists.


... Unemployment and poverty do not drive extremism directly. People can live with deprivation if they know what’s expected, where they fit into the picture, and how they will survive, if only barely. They can live with adversity if they can plan for it.

But when unemployment and poverty surge unexpectedly, overturning the status quo, when hopes and dreams and long-laid plans fly out the window, extremism becomes much more attractive. When uncertainty overtakes the system itself, when the system is the source of uncertainty, things can really fall apart, and it becomes difficult to know which way society will turn. ...
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2020, 11:24:18 PM »
Quote
Tom has been captured by the culture wars to vote against the precepts of his religion.
He votes on one issue and ignores the huge disparity between the teaching of Christ and the implications and outcomes of his political standpoint.

Letter in all church bulletins in the diocese:
https://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/news/2020/09/30/a-message-on-the-upcoming-election-from-bishop-edward-malesic
Quote
When we cast our vote, we must not remain indifferent to those positions and policies that would negatively impact religious freedoms, erode the traditional family, or make it difficult for the poor to access adequate education, housing and healthcare. We must carefully consider how to fix our broken immigration system, address the worldwide refugee crisis, preserve our natural resources, protect the environment and strive for humane solutions to global conflict and terrorism.

But, to be clear, although there are many causes our Church stands for and is vocal about, the right to life itself must be given our paramount consideration so that people can have the chance to secure all the other benefits that life can afford.

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Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2020, 11:30:39 PM »
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[In Europe,] we only see political violence coming from the alt-right
I guess state-sponsored poisonings can be called alt-right political activity.
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Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2020, 01:42:28 AM »
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The condemnation of liberation movements for resorting to violence or armed struggle is almost invariably superficial, hypocritical, judgmental, and unfair, and tends strongly to represent another example of the generalized phenomenon of blaming the victim. The violence of the situation the preexisting oppression suffered by those who eventually strike back, is conveniently ignored. The violence of the oppressed is a form of defensive counterviolence to the violence of conquest and oppression. In no armed national liberation movement I know of in history has this not been the case.

Jeff Sluka

Wili hit the nail on the head here.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 03:49:19 AM by Ktb »
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Freegrass

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2020, 01:47:35 AM »
Why does this thread exist, and why do I have to see this BS every time I open up ASIF?
The name "Alt right" is used as an alternative name for fascism because it sounds better. Please call this thread Fascism, or delete this BS!!!
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wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2020, 02:35:41 AM »
Tom, aren't the words of your own Pope a bit more weighty that some church bulletin?

Quote
Pope Francis has released a new papal document in which he criticizes everything from the toxicity of social media to Catholics’ single-minded focus on abortion...

"Our defence of the innocent unborn, for example, needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person, regardless of his or her stage of development.

Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejection."

I'm wondering how such clear papal proclamations are being taken in by you and the folks of similar mind in your circle. Do you just blow off the Pope when he isn't saying something you want to hear?

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/11/17220108/pope-francis-catholics-conservative-abortion-gaudete-exsultate-twitter-church-apostolic-exhortation
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."