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Neven

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Electric cars
« on: May 13, 2019, 05:26:27 PM »
This thread is for discussing the latest in EV technology and infrastructure. The original Cars, cars and more cars thread can be used to discuss what it all means as a solution in the greater scheme of things.

Edit: Make that the new Cars, cars and more cars thread.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 05:32:58 PM by Neven »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 05:29:33 PM »
Where do we discuss what’s happening with the traditional auto manufacturers and whether they are succeeding with their transition to EVs... or facing bankruptcy?
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magnamentis

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 05:33:17 PM »
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg199106.html#msg199106

i posted that just the minute N made his changes which is why i crosspost the link where appropriate as an exception ;)
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Neven

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2019, 05:33:40 PM »
Where do we discuss what’s happening with the traditional auto manufacturers and whether they are succeeding with their transition to EVs... or facing bankruptcy?

You can discuss that here as well, as it's part of the same dynamic.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2019, 05:34:28 PM »
Where do we discuss what’s happening with the traditional auto manufacturers and whether they are succeeding with their transition to EVs... or facing bankruptcy?

You can discuss that here as well, as it's part of the same dynamic.

Great, thanks!
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Pmt111500

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2019, 05:39:48 PM »
Ah, so the character of the thread is not changing.  Personally, I think electric motors are more efficient than petrol or diesel ones, but. Where do we discuss of the changes needed for fixed infrastructure that are needed for efficient transport along roads?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2019, 05:49:09 PM »
Ah, so the character of the thread is not changing.  Personally, I think electric motors are more efficient than petrol or diesel ones, but. Where do we discuss of the changes needed for fixed infrastructure that are needed for efficient transport along roads?

I guess that depends on whether you mean modern, evolutionary transport... or dirty old transport that will kill us all.  ;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2019, 09:25:37 PM »
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 5/12/19, 10:37 PM
Why are @BMW & @Daimler capital expenditures rising while their revenues plunge? Could it be that they delayed maintenance capex for as long as they can, and now [poop emoji] is hitting the fan? 2019 is going to be very, very difficult for the incumbents:
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1127764857128931329
Data: Line graphs at the link.

ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 5/12/19, 10:45 PM
Declining Fixed Asset Turnover (bottom graph) SCREAMS that both @BMW & @Daimler are under-depreciating their stranded ICE property, plant, and equipment. IMO, the two companies will soon recognize $10B+ fixed asset write-down charges [poop emoji] oops.
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1127766700986908672
Graphs at the link.

ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 5/12/19, 10:58 PM
@BMW & @Daimler together deliver six million vehicles per year, and as their financial insolvencies come to the surface in 2019, I expect their customer base to increasingly shift to @Tesla
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1127770147924713475
< I understand the hesitancy among financial institutions to project exponential growth at Tesla, but with these bad ICE financials, why hasn’t conservative money started to back out (and cause a snowball effect)?
<< Two words: Big Oil.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2019, 09:26:54 PM »
Porsche Taycan interior revealed in leaked images -
Quote
The images show that Porsche stuck with the multi-screen design first seen in the concept vehicle back in 2015, but the overall design is toned down and a little less futuristic.
Last month, Porsche said that Taycan is completing its ‘final test drives before it enters series production’. ...
https://electrek.co/2019/05/13/porsche-taycan-interior-leak-images/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 01:54:56 PM »
Lightyear One long range solar car to be unveiled June 25th
Quote
The company has revealed that they will be showing off a prototype vehicle of the Lightyear One in the Netherlands on June the 25th.
https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/lightyear-one-long-range-solar-car-to-be-unveiled-june-25th-14-05-2019/

https://lightyear.one/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2019, 02:13:57 PM »
Half dirty, half clean.  That’s neutral, right?  ::)

Mercedes-Benz's aggressive climate pledge: All cars will be carbon-neutral by 2039
Quote
Mercedes-Benz pledged on Monday to make its new passenger car fleet carbon-neutral within two decades, an ambitious goal built on electric vehicles and renewable energy.

The target, described as a "fundamental transformation of our company," appears to be more aggressive than similar carbon-neutral targets announced by Volkswagen (VLKAF) and other major auto makers.

Mercedes, owned by Daimler (DDAIF), will slash its carbon footprint by building far fewer combustion engines. By 2030, the German manufacturer aims to have all-electric models and hybrids make up more than half of its total car sales.

And Mercedes plans to lean on wind power and other forms of clean energy to make its vast manufacturing operations cleaner. The auto maker set a goal of carbon-neutral European plants by 2022.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/13/business/mercedes-benz-carbon-neutral-electric-vehicles/index.html




Volkswagen to invest 1bn euros in battery production plant
Quote
Automaker Volkswagen AG says it is investing 1 billion euros ($1.12 billion) to set up a battery production plant in Germany.

Chief executive Herbert Diess said Tuesday that the factory is part of the company's effort to electrify its vehicles.

He said the plant will be built in the northern city of Salzgitter, which has ready access to vast wind power plants in the region.

Volkswagen is trying to move on from the diesel emissions scandal, which has so far cost the company 30 billion euros.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/volkswagen-invest-1bn-euros-battery-production-plant-63024084
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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2019, 05:07:47 AM »
Cheap EVs On The Way In Europe, While Luxury Brands Start Taking EV Market Seriously
May 14, 2019

Quote
Latest developments suggest that first profitable and truly mass-market EVs are on their way, while luxury auto makers are starting to compete.

The groundbreaking aspect of this important detail may escape many readers and analysts throughout the financial world. But the reality is that thus far, aside from luxury EV options, meant mostly for the 1% among us, such as Tesla's Models S and X, and even the premium version of the Model 3 or Audi's e-Tron, most actual mass-market EVs, have been loss-making projects. The exceptions, if any are truly rare.

If Renault's offer will be the first such offer to break through that barrier, with healthy sales to back it up, then we are in fact looking at the beginnings of a real challenge to oil's near monopoly on vehicle transportation.
[...]

Up to recently, the Tesla story was mostly about selling vehicles that only a select few can afford. It mostly had this niche market within the luxury car segment more or less to itself. Audi's e-tron currently boasts of over 20,000 reservations. Daimler's (OTCPK:DMLRY) EQ-Concept production is said to be reserved by customers for this year. Not quite clear just how many they intend to produce, but however many there will be, they are set to deliver them to customers. Clearly, Tesla no longer has the status symbol EV market to itself, and this is clearly just the beginning. [...]

The e-tron and other EV models are increasingly starting to make an impact on the market. For instance, in Europe, the e-tron is currently out-selling Tesla's Model S as well as the Model X.


A cheaper Tesla does not seem to stand in the way of other luxury car makers selling more expensive EVs, as evidenced by demand trends we are seeing, but it rather seems that it is cannibalizing its own luxury car sales.



EV trade is now becoming more and more of an issue, given the growth in overall global EV sales. China has been nurturing its own domestic EV industry, with EV exports in mind for the future. It is looking to do something within what is essentially a new industry, which it was not able to do with ICE-powered vehicles. I expect that EV exports will be a major topic throughout most of the next decade. An early indication of European export potential suggests that it is looking alright early on for the European manufacturers.



https://seekingalpha.com/article/4263828-cheap-evs-way-europe-luxury-brands-start-taking-ev-market-seriously?mod=mw_quote_news
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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2019, 05:21:14 AM »
Opinion: China, not Tesla, is driving the electric-car revolution
Published: May 14, 2019

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2406.msg199336.html#msg199336
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magnamentis

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2019, 07:32:02 PM »
Opinion: China, not Tesla, is driving the electric-car revolution
Published: May 14, 2019

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2406.msg199336.html#msg199336

interesting how the viewing angle impacts the content of the very same story ;)

thanks for showing us the entirely other side of the medal and even though i find "link addiction" or making links a  religion as annoying like probably yourself, i must say that those who permanently link information, independent on the quality or thruth, have a huga advantage over any length of text, even when mostly correct.

hence even though i don't like it, neven is probably right with this (like with many other things of course)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 01:47:27 AM »
More context behind the story of the planned VW battery plant:

VW Will Make Its Own Batteries to Power an Electric Future
https://www.wired.com/story/vw-make-batteries-power-electric-future/

————
Plans for spending tons of money on a new — ICE! — car factory, rather than speeding their transition to EVs.  No location set yet, let alone any agreement. 

VW says 'concrete' talks to begin for new [East] European plant
Quote
Volkswagen Group says it will start talks for a new multibrand car assembly plant in Europe.
The move was announced by VW on Monday after the automaker's supervisory and management boards gave their approval.
VW will begin "concrete negotiations" for the plant in Europe with the remaining potential locations, VW said in a statement.
VW first said in November that it plans to add an additional plant in eastern Europe to expand its production capacity after 2022.
The move is being driven by a capacity squeeze at VW Group's Skoda brand. The plant is expected to make the Skoda Karoq and Seat Ateca compact SUVs.
Bulgaria, Serbia and Turkey are all in talks to win the factory, press reports have said.
https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/vw-says-concrete-talks-begin-new-european-plant

———
Buses are dominating the electric vehicles boom
Quote
Roughly two-thirds of buses worldwide will be electrified by 2040, according to the latest research from BloombergNEF, while sales of electric cars and light-duty commercial vehicles are on track to be more than 50% by then too.

What they’re saying: Colin McKerracher, head of advanced transport for BNEF, says in a statement: "We see a real possibility that global sales of conventional passenger cars have already passed their peak."
https://www.axios.com/electric-vehicles-buses-china-dominance-adef3c15-d1bb-4ee9-b6ec-4a91a97150d1.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 01:55:49 AM »
Opinion: China, not Tesla, is driving the electric-car revolution
Published: May 14, 2019

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2406.msg199336.html#msg199336

interesting how the viewing angle impacts the content of the very same story ;)

thanks for showing us the entirely other side of the medal and even though i find "link addiction" or making links a  religion as annoying like probably yourself, i must say that those who permanently link information, independent on the quality or thruth, have a huga advantage over any length of text, even when mostly correct.

hence even though i don't like it, neven is probably right with this (like with many other things of course)

Truth: the article includes hybrids in its China EV numbers.

Looking only at all-electric vehicles:
Top 5 all-electric car manufacturers (automotive groups) for Q1 2019:
   •   Tesla (63,000, +105%);
   •   Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance (46,768, +16%);
   •   BYD Group (45,758, +758%);
   •   BAIC (26,106, +21%);
   •   Hyundai Motor Group (Hyundai, Kia) (19,632, +132%).
Source: EV Sales Blog
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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 04:14:09 AM »
Opinion: China, not Tesla, is driving the electric-car revolution
Published: May 14, 2019

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2406.msg199336.html#msg199336

interesting how the viewing angle impacts the content of the very same story ;)

thanks for showing us the entirely other side of the medal and even though i find "link addiction" or making links a  religion as annoying like probably yourself, i must say that those who permanently link information, independent on the quality or thruth, have a huga advantage over any length of text, even when mostly correct.

hence even though i don't like it, neven is probably right with this (like with many other things of course)

Truth: the article includes hybrids in its China EV numbers.

Looking only at all-electric vehicles:
Top 5 all-electric car manufacturers (automotive groups) for Q1 2019:
   •   Tesla (63,000, +105%);
   •   Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance (46,768, +16%);
   •   BYD Group (45,758, +758%);
   •   BAIC (26,106, +21%);
   •   Hyundai Motor Group (Hyundai, Kia) (19,632, +132%).
Source: EV Sales Blog

Truth: Your EV Sales BLOGGER is only looking at All-Electric Vehicles

He does not include ALL the electric vehicles that are combining together to drive down GHG emissions in China - as ALL EV development increases apace as a direct result of Hybrids being on the roads and the accumulated knowledge learned from that!

 :P
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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 04:41:01 AM »
Opinion: China, not Tesla, is driving the electric-car revolution
Published: May 14, 2019

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2406.msg199336.html#msg199336

interesting how the viewing angle impacts the content of the very same story ;)

thanks for showing us the entirely other side of the medal and even though i find "link addiction" or making links a  religion as annoying like probably yourself, i must say that those who permanently link information, independent on the quality or thruth, have a huga advantage over any length of text, even when mostly correct.

hence even though i don't like it, neven is probably right with this (like with many other things of course)

Yes. :D

I'm seriously considering creating my own Expert Blog site, signing up for Twitter to facilitate Viral promotion, and am about to start posting to the Official Tesla Blog too. Already submitted two Tesla articles to SeekAlpha, waiting on a positive response. I mean, it's been proven repeatedly how I am regularly ahead of the game here. ;)

Then Oren, NeilT, Archimid, BeesKnees and Sigmetnow can post never-ending links to my unsubstantiated unproven and biased grandiose insights here presenting them as Highly Credible Objective Expert Analysis too!

I think I'll name my Blog ... "You Heard It Here First"
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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 06:42:00 AM »
The road to hell is plastered with optimism!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2019, 01:26:45 PM »
Quote
Opinion: China, not Tesla, is driving the electric-car revolution

That “Opinion” headline is pure clickbait for the anti-Tesla crowd.  Tesla isn’t even mentioned in the article, let alone compared data-wise.

If you insist on comparing a single EV manufacturer to an entire country, here’s one:

“Tesla is leading the world in all-electric cars, not Germany.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 01:36:23 PM »
"BAIC has started acquiring Daimler shares on the open market, one source said. 'Daimler’s share price is currently being underpinned by a buyer who appears to be building a stake.'

Exclusive: China's BAIC seeks to buy 5 percent Daimler stake - sources
Quote
BEIJING/FRANKFURT (Reuters) - China's BAIC Group is seeking to buy a stake of up to 5 percent in Daimler as a way to secure its investment in Chinese Mercedes-Benz manufacturing company Beijing Benz Automotive, three sources familiar with the matter told Reuters.

BAIC informed Daimler of its intention to buy a 4-5 percent stake in the German maker of Mercedes-Benz cars earlier this year, two of the three sources said.
BAIC has asked local authorities in Beijing to support a 4-5 percent stake purchase, two of these sources said.
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1SH06G



Tesla is a pioneer that drives Volkswagen’s EV initiatives, says CEO Herbert Diess
Quote
Earlier this year, Volkswagen also recognized the Tesla Model 3 at the National Automobile Dealers Association in the US. During the event, Scott Keogh, the chief executive officer of Volkswagen AG’s US unit, argued that Tesla all but proved that electric vehicles are here to stay. “We have not seen in the history of the auto business, a company going from zero to fourth place in luxury in a matter of a few years,” the exec said, referencing Tesla’s rapid rise among automakers over the years.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-drives-volkswagen-herbest-diess/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 01:43:36 PM »
Nissan LEAF Arrives In Singapore With Insane Price Tag Of $118,250
Quote
The 40 kWh Nissan LEAF entered the market, but at a price of S$161,800 (≈$118,250 USD).
A few days ago, Nissan fulfilled the promise to deliver the LEAF (40 kWh version) to Singapore, which is one of several new markets in Asia and Oceania.
Taking into consideration the price - $161,800 SGD with Certificate of Entitlement (≈$118,250 USD) - and size of the market, Singapore probably will not be a noticeable market for the LEAF, but this enables Singapore to get a taste of the best-selling EV (in terms of over 400,000 cumulative sales).
https://insideevs.com/news/349462/nissan-leaf-arrives-in-singapore/amp/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 01:47:50 PM »
Jim McPherson (@mcjamez) 5/12/19, 12:48 PM
1/ Audi’s is making their charging algorithm to be an advantage over Tesla. It does charge faster for the same max power than a Tesla. There is more to be considered though....  [article linked below] via @InsideEVs.com
https://twitter.com/mcjamez/status/1127616568626688001
2/ Audi charges at constant current to 80% then appears to change to constant voltage until full charge. Tesla swaps from constant current far earlier in the charge cycle which means the taper in speed starts earlier.
3/ What Audi doesn’t mention is that “their” algorithm is the exact same as the standard method that has been used for 20+ years. It’s the industry standard.
- Charging algorithm is a critical part of battery life. @Tesla significantly deviates from the standard algorithm. This is not by accident.
- Note that none of this has anything to do with the actual charge rate (in kW). This is an observation on the way that energy is “pushed” into the battery. Audi uses the well established standard. Tesla uses their own method.

Audi: The e-tron Is Benchmark For DC Fast Charging
https://insideevs.com/news/349067/audi-e-tron-benchmark-fast-charging/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2019, 01:58:24 PM »
Not electric (yet).  But autonomous....

Highways England introduces self-driving dump trucks for road construction
Self-driving lorries could be in full service by 2022
Quote
HIGHWAYS England has begun field trials of a self-driving dump truck at the construction of a new bypass in Cambridgeshire.

The autonomous vehicle is being tested at the works on the A14 dual carriageway north-west of Cambridge. While the truck is loaded with sensors that allow it to spot and react to obstacles for fully autonomous driving, it only operates within a controlled environment and is limited to a pre-programmed route during the tests. ...
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/highways-england-introduces-self-driving-dump-trucks-road-construction/
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 02:01:18 PM »
Quote
Opinion: China, not Tesla, is driving the electric-car revolution

That “Opinion” headline is pure clickbait for the anti-Tesla crowd. 

Can you prove your opinion/claim is true? No you cannot = a nothing-burger.
Quote

Tesla isn’t even mentioned in the article, let alone compared data-wise.

Why are you telling lies about that article Sig.?
Quote
If — or when — that happens, inexpensive, efficient electric cars may spread through the West from China, surpassing Tesla TSLA, -0.09% and other American and European electric vehicle efforts.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-not-tesla-will-drive-the-electric-car-revolution-2019-05-14

Quote
If you insist on comparing a single EV manufacturer to an entire country, here’s one:
“Tesla is leading the world in all-electric cars, not Germany.”

Hey, I am not insisting anything. Enough of the false claims and gaslighting please.

I posted an article/link to a  thread as per Neven's strict guidelines.

So don't complain to me, go complain to marketwatch and the author instead! Like they'd be any more interested in what you think, not. :D

News-Flash Sig. "Not everyone in this world agrees with your opinions about Tesla etc etc etc." That they do not does not automatically make them wrong either.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:19:03 PM by Lurk »
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2019, 02:05:19 PM »
Not electric (yet).  But autonomous.... (and a DUMP TRUCK too boot)

Then what is it doing on the "electric cars" thread Sig.?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2019, 02:21:45 PM »
Not electric (yet).  But autonomous.... (and a DUMP TRUCK too boot)

Then what is it doing on the "electric cars" thread Sig.?

Because it concerns “the latest in EV technology,” Lurk.

Edit:
Also this:
Where do we discuss what’s happening with the traditional auto manufacturers and whether they are succeeding with their transition to EVs... or facing bankruptcy?

You can discuss that here as well, as it's part of the same dynamic.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:50:26 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2019, 02:34:50 PM »
Another example of how today’s EVs are quickly catching up to 100 years of ICE car development.

Tesla Model 3, Model S find success in America's toughest street-car race
Quote
Two teams not only became the first EVs ever to compete in the Tire Rack One Lap of America, they scored impressive results, too.

A pair of Teslas have become the first electric cars ever to compete in the Tire Rack One Lap of America. The weeklong rally race is widely regarded as being among the toughest street-car motorsports challenges in the country.

The two teams' 2018 Tesla Model 3 and 2017 Tesla Model S P100D not only successfully completed the event on Saturday, both EVs notched impressive showings in the event's Alternative Fuel and Stock Touring categories, including a class win for the Model 3 in the former.

Better known simply as "One Lap," this annual seven-day event is the direct descendant of the Cannonball Run, the fabled outlaw coast-to-coast New York to Los Angeles race. In contrast to its forebear, One Lap is decidedly more legal in nature, consisting of time trials at race tracks around the nation. Legendary for its grueling long-distance transits and for its variety of on-track challenges, the seven-day rally event varies its route and tracks each year, a formidable durability test for both driver and machine. ...
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-3-model-s-one-lap-of-america-toughest-street-car-race/
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FrostKing70

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2019, 03:11:22 PM »
I have been looking at an EV as my next vehicle, but are running into some infrastructure concerns.  According to the data I found, I need to install a dedicated 120 V circuit to charge the vehicle or a 240 V circuit for faster charging.

Anyone have any experience they can share on Level 1 charging?

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-plug-in-hybrid#


"Clarity Plug-In Hybrid offers two ways to charge:

• Level 2 (J1772) charging is the fastest, most convenient and least expensive way to keep your vehicle charged. Level 2 charging gives you the flexibility to charge your battery in just 2.5 hours* at home, office or anywhere there’s a 240-volt charger. To charge in the convenience of your own home, Honda recommends contacting a licensed electrician to install 240-volt, 30+ amp electric vehicle service equipment (EVSE). Visit QMeritCharging or Amazon.com to find EVSE installation services in your area.

• Level 1 charging is also an easy way to charge, using any compatible 120-volt wall power outlet. Use the required charging cord that comes with the Clarity Plug-In Hybrid, plug in and fully charge your battery in twelve hours*.

When you need to charge on the road, there are over 36,000 EV charging stations conveniently located throughout the United States. With the HondaLink® app and PlugShare®, they’re easy to find. For station-specific information, check out ChargePoint® and EVgo stations near you."

The * indicates a dedicated circuit is needed for Level 1 charging.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 03:26:58 PM by FrostKing70 »

Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2019, 03:24:35 PM »
Not electric (yet).  But autonomous.... (and a DUMP TRUCK too boot)

Then what is it doing on the "electric cars" thread Sig.?

Because it concerns “the latest in EV technology,” Lurk.

Edit:
Also this:
Where do we discuss what’s happening with the traditional auto manufacturers and whether they are succeeding with their transition to EVs... or facing bankruptcy?

You can discuss that here as well, as it's part of the same dynamic.

Very weak excuse if you ask me. EV technology and Autonomous driving are separate issues, even if at times they end up in the same car together or in the occasional DUMP TRUCK. :D

Neither Auto-Pilot, FSD nor Robo-Taxi Networks are an essential requirement for an "Electric Car" to be built or sold or driven successfully, imho. Nor relevant to auto-makers "facing bankruptcy".

Maybe you need a separate thread for autonomy issues that don't involve Tesla or EVs specifically? Whatever 'floats your boat' is fine by me. Just a thought. ;)

If FSD works then it will work just as well in an ICE car if someone wishes to build one.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 03:40:12 PM by Lurk »
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2019, 03:36:28 PM »
FrostKing70, you want to look into AC and DC charging.

For example, the Renault Zoe is fast at AC (22KW). On the other hand, the Hyundai Kona is faster (50KW) and does DC charging.

Depending on what car you get, you'll need a wallbox accordingly. With most wallboxes/cars you can charge your car fully overnight. An electrician has to install it.

Edit: Added screenshot Kona charging methods.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 03:55:44 PM by b_lumenkraft »

Neven

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2019, 04:07:34 PM »
If anyone has a better name for this thread, encompassing the tech and market, I'm all ears.

'Car technology, market and infrastructure'?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2019, 05:41:29 PM »
If anyone has a better name for this thread, encompassing the tech and market, I'm all ears.

'Car technology, market and infrastructure'?

But... Trucks?  :)

How about:  The Move to EVs & Vehicle Mobility Tech
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sedziobs

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2019, 05:54:04 PM »
I have been looking at an EV as my next vehicle, but are running into some infrastructure concerns.  According to the data I found, I need to install a dedicated 120 V circuit to charge the vehicle or a 240 V circuit for faster charging.

Anyone have any experience they can share on Level 1 charging?

You don't necessarily need a new dedicated circuit, but the charger will pull 12 amps (unless the rate can be manually lowered as in a Tesla). Any additional loads can blow a standard 15 amp 120V circuit.  Many garages and outdoor receptacles are on dedicated circuits, so you just need to make sure nothing else is plugged in when you are charging.

If you are going to have a circuit installed, it's probably worth jumping up to a 240V. You can find EVSE cables that fit 14-50 (RV/oven) and 14-30 (dryer) outlets for about $200.  I had a pair of 14-30 outlets installed for $900 in Ohio, which we use for an Outlander PHEV and Model 3. One circuit would probably be $600 or so. A 240V will definitely be worthwhile if you ever upgrade to a full BEV.

Note: This assumes you are in the US. Europe will undoubtedly be different.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2019, 06:43:49 PM »
More promises from VW:
• prepared to invest €1 billion in a battery cell factory in Europe.
• signed a deal to purchase batteries from Swedish startup Northvolt for Scania etrucks
• constructing two new EV assembly facilities in China

“Volkswagen leads the competition on e-mobility,” Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess told the audience at the company’s annual meeting in Berlin.

Maybe SOME of the competition.  Or, at some point in the future.  We will see.

Volkswagen Continues To Ramp Up Its Electric Car Push
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/15/volkswagen-continues-to-ramp-up-its-electric-car-push/



Volvo secures 'multi-billion dollar battery supply deals' to support its electric car plans
https://electrek.co/2019/05/15/volvo-battery-supply-deal-electric-car-plans/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2019, 09:02:33 PM »
Hyundai, with its industry-leading battery-efficient Ioniq EV, was voted the EV-maker “most likely to surprise us.”
Looks like that may be a good bet.

Hyundai & Kia Make An €80 Million Investment In Rimac
Quote
Croatia’s Rimac Automobilii, founded by Mate Rimac, is tiny by comparison to most mainstream automakers but it has created some very impressive electric cars. Its forte is advanced battery and control system technology. Its prowess has already attracted a 10% ownership stake from Porsche, which just happens to be part of the Volkswagen Group. So everything Porsche learns from its association with Rimac will trickle down to Audi, SEAT, Ducati, MAN, Scania. Lamborghini, Bugatti, and all the other pieces of the far flung Volkswagen empire. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/15/hyundai-kia-make-an-80-million-euro-investment-in-rimac/


——-
Quote
James Corey (@jcorey1995) 5/15/19, 4:18 PM
Who can give me a bull thesis for this
https://twitter.com/jcorey1995/status/1128756450422022144
Photo below. :o  ;D

——- Edit: more:
On the radar: Nissan stays cool on lidar tech, siding with Tesla
Quote
YOKOHAMA (Reuters) - Nissan Motor Co Ltd said on Thursday it would, for now, stick to self-driving technology which uses radar sensors and cameras, avoiding lidar or light-based sensors because of their high cost and limited capabilities.

The Japanese automaker unveiled updated self-driving technology a month after Tesla Inc's Chief Executive Elon Musk called lidar "a fool's errand", berating the technology for being expensive and unnecessary.

Nissan, which wants to have its self-driving cars on city streets by 2020, has long shunned lidar, a relatively new technology for automobiles which has recently been the subject of an influx in investment by many of its rivals.

Nissan wants to add its self-driving technology to more of its affordable models to boost sales and recover from a profit slump. When reporting earnings earlier this week, the automaker said it had hit "rock bottom" in the aftermath of a financial scandal involving its ousted Chairman Carlos Ghosn.
https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1SM0W0
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 10:00:45 PM by Sigmetnow »
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magnamentis

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2019, 01:10:05 AM »
The road to hell is plastered with optimism!

true while once surrounded by pessimists you know you have arrived (in hell i mean)  8)

i'm an optimistic realist and even though it comes with a price tag (like being honest LOL)
i purposefully won't gonna change that.
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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2019, 04:49:48 AM »
If anyone has a better name for this thread, encompassing the tech and market, I'm all ears.

'Car technology, market and infrastructure'?

How about this?

The Science, Myths and Politics of modern day Transportation Technologies

We're drowning in bullshit.
Politicians are unconstrained by the facts.
Science is conducted by press release.


See Vox Mundi @
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2303.msg199609.html#msg199609

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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2019, 07:48:20 AM »
Following along the current theme of encouraging a rise in the quality of discussions (and posts):

Electric Vehicles

2018-12-17
Author
Beck, Cody
Jones, Tanner
Swafford, Luke
Schmidt, Hunter
 
This chapter regards the current state of electric vehicles in society today: the pros and cons, areas that need to improve, etc. The chapter starts by discussing some of the unethical practices that go into creating commodities of electric vehicles. From there, we explore the short, yet rapidly changing history of electric vehicles. Topics explored throughout its history include early inefficiencies, the introduction of hybrids that led to major improvements, and the increase in availability.

The chapter then explores markets and commodities of electric vehicles, which explores the supply and demand side of this technology. We will show how growing demand has lead to improved government action, and how production methods must be improved for a sustainable future of electric vehicles.

Finally, we test the ethics of electric vehicles, challenging the notion of nothing but the most ethical environmental standards. We will show how ways of metal mining and electricity generation actually do more bad than good for our environment. By reading this chapter, you will become more knowledgeable of how impactful electric vehicles are, and also you will get a grasp on whether or not you want to support this practice.


https://shareok.org/handle/11244/317114

URI https://hdl.handle.net/11244/317114
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Sleepy

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2019, 08:06:47 AM »
The Worlds first public road permit for an autonomous electric truck in Jönköping.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-einride-autonomous-sweden/driverless-electric-truck-starts-deliveries-on-swedish-public-road-idUSKCN1SL0NC
Amazing! Video at the link! /sarc off

Yep, they finally got their public road permit and had their premier on Wednesday. I't not like depicted in Electrec etc (driving down long winding winter roads here...). The permit only applies to journeys at a short distance on Ljungarum's industrial area, on Skruvgatan between Schenker's warehouse and terminal. One requirement is that there must be a person nearby who can stop the truck if needed.

Adding an image of the area and the road in question, Skruvgatan. Which is a public road, I've been there so I actually know for a fact that it is public. Very short and very public.

Edit; added /sarc off tag for clarity.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 08:21:39 AM by Sleepy »
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2019, 03:16:21 PM »
Audi cheating again. I'm so not shocked...

Correcting Audi: Tesla Model 3 Charges Over 2 Times Faster Than Audi e-tron

Quote
There is a lot of confusion about electric vehicles. Different test cycles, range, state of charge, efficiency, charging power, and charging rate. This lack of general knowledge helps companies make unsubstantiated claims about their cars.

I got on the phone with Mark Dahncke (Director, Product/Technology/Motorsports Communications of Audi USA) about this. He confirmed the source of the data and admitted that Audi never contacted or credited the original author. He further regretted that Audi (accidentally[1]) falsified the underlying data. Although he was now denying that the presented chart implies that the e-tron can charge faster, he was still defending Audi’s basic claim that a high charging power helps you reach your destination faster. Oversimplified statements like these are not only purposefully misleading. They also add to general EV confusion, which is bad for everyone.

Link >> https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/17/correcting-audi-tesla-model-3-charges-over-2-times-faster-than-audi-e-tron/

[1] LOL

Archimid

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2019, 04:48:45 PM »
Porsche Taycan owners will get three years free charging at hundreds of Electrify America stations


https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/28/porsche-taycan-owners-will-get-three-years-free-charging-at-hundreds-of-electrify-america-stations/

Quote
And in many cases, that will include access to DC fast chargers that will allow the Taycan, which is designed to have an 800 volt battery that can take a 350 kW charge, to get 60 miles of range in just four minutes. That charging speed blows away competitor Tesla, which has set up its own vast network of fast chargers called Superchargers.

We'll have to see  for how long the Taycan can sustain 350kW but this a step in the right direction.

If Porsche goes all out and engineers the Taycan to be better than their ICE cars that another nail on the ICE coffin.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2019, 05:44:31 PM »
...
If Porsche goes all out and engineers the Taycan to be better than their ICE cars that another nail on the ICE coffin.

A rather mild first effort overall, but I hope it does well and helps them move forward.  (Tesla sold over 25,000 Model 3 in the first 12 months of “production hell” of their first high-volume car.  The experienced carmaker Porsche’s goal is 20,000 by the end of 2020, and demand is certainly not a limiting factor at this point.)

Quote
Though Porsche’s Taycan has yet to be released, the 311 mile (500 km) NEDC range is expected to drop to 240 to 250 (386-402 km) EPA miles.
https://www.allthingsev.info/youtube/2019/4/10/teslas-electric-vehicle-holy-grail
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2019, 07:14:13 PM »
Fast-charging is the key to convenience, in this situation.

Can you own an electric car without a home charger? - ABC News
Quote
EDMUNDS SAYS: It is possible to own an EV without a home charger. But it depends on how much you drive daily and how comfortable you are with sticking to a routine of public charging, which is easier with Tesla's supercharging network. However, the barrier of entry for Teslas is higher given that they are more expensive than the average EV.
https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/electric-car-home-charger-63046835

Pretty amazing to see this article appearing in the mainstream media. 8)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2019, 08:01:40 PM »
This was just published under the heading, “Anyone’s Guess.” ;D

Electric car forecasts are all over the map
Quote
The only thing sure about electric cars is they will eclipse the internal combustion engine—one day. The timing, however, is the topic of fierce and wildly divergent speculation. At the moment, only one in 250 cars on the road is electric. Battery electric cars comprise 2.1% of new global auto sales (about 2 million passenger vehicles). Electric vehicle (EV) sales should hit 2.7 million in 2019 even as the broader auto market declines (paywall).
...
Governments tend to formulate conservative estimates based on today’s technology rather than hazard hopeful guesses on future developments. That’s fine for mature industries. During times of breakneck technological change, it doesn’t work as well. As a result, the US government has massively and consistently underestimated the spread of renewable energy in the US. ...
https://qz.com/1620614/electric-car-forecasts-are-all-over-the-map/
Lots of predictive charts at the link.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2019, 08:51:44 PM »
Mercedes-Benz EQC first drive review: an easy way for Mercedes drivers to go electric
Quote
The battery pack is where things get interesting. Mercedes-Benz is listing it as having a capacity of 80 kWh, but that’s the usable energy capacity.
...
Based on the WLTP cycle, the electric SUV has a range of 259 miles (417 km). It’s the same as the Audi e-tron electric SUV, which has a 95 kWh battery pack with 83.6 kWh of usable capacity.

The e-tron is a slightly larger vehicle, which could explain them having the same range with slightly different usable energy capacity.

However, in my own experience with the EQC, it’s getting closer to 200 miles [322 km] on a single charge. ...
https://electrek.co/2019/05/17/mercedes-benz-eqc-review-electric-suv-first-drive/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #46 on: Today at 03:17:24 AM »
Mitsubishi campaigned unsuccessfully to keep the incentive for its Outlander PHEV, the best selling PHEV in UK/Europe.

UK Will Not Reinstate Plug-In Car Grant For PHEVs
The only way forward are all-electric cars already?
Quote
The British government isn't willing to subsidize the plug-in hybrid cars again after removing the £2,500 Plug-In Car Grant for PHEVs and decreasing the amount for BEVs from £4,500 to £3,500 in October 2018.

Jesse Norman, UK's minister of state for the Department for Transport, told Autocar that the focus is now on all-electric cars and the government will not reinstate the plug-in hybrid grant.

One of the reasons against PHEVs is that there were examples of people who bought PHEVs to get incentives, but then didn't charge the cars. Instead, they used them as conventional hybrids. 

“We have to spend the tax payers’ money in a way that reflects the changing market. The evidence was very clear: owners of plug-in hybrids were not plugging them in, negating the environmental benefits and undermining the incentives.  Instead, our focus is very much on pushing battery electric vehicles. It's where we have to get to and where we can see the biggest benefits.  I expect the prices of electric cars to come down dramatically in the same way, and I’m not prepared to spend tax payers’ money incentivising technology that doesn’t reflect this changing market.”

Plug-in hybrid car sales in the UK decreased so far this year by over 20%, including 34% in April. ...
https://insideevs.com/news/350177/uk-not-reinstate-grant-phevs/amp/
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Lurk

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #47 on: Today at 03:13:40 PM »
OK then. Looks like I am finally getting up to speed. 6 months ago I knew barely any up-to-date details about Tesla or EVs. I don't think I had even seen a youtube video of Elon Musk in action - he had little to no interest for me. My cursory broad 'big picture' opinions weren't much impressed for the long term, but I had bigger fish to fry and different interests back then. Now that has changed and here we are.

Progressively I have built a reliable range of credible sources for quality EV information, while traversing the swamp of online materials, in particular about Tesla and educated myself trusting no one and ignoring all the hype and social media BS. I've no interest in other people's opinions bar a few exceptions.

Now, I think I have found the best quality article I have yet seen on Tesla, and it's up-to-date at mid-May 2019. Like good climate science resources it provides numerous references on whom the author relies, or at least is using as their best example to support a point they are making. And like all climate science analysis the devil is in the details, and that's where one typically finds the nuanced higher quality work as well.

No, I am not 100% certain everything in this document is "perfect" nor "proven beyond all doubt" either, but what I do know from what I know so far is it's a really good article. I make no claims about it, other than I think it is pretty good and worth reading - so Caveat Emptor and do take responsibility for your own judgements and conclusions - and remember it's not my article, I am not here to defend it, or argue about it, but only to share it.

How do I know it's good? Because all the way through items arise that I am already aware of as being based in facts and evidence - iow they are true and correct. I am not talking about "opinions" or "suspicions" or what the "projections/expectations" might be in the future, but only the everyday hard nosed researched credible facts of evidence, (mostly) backed up with links to, or info about, accessible original sources e.g. direct from Tesla's filings.

This document is good because in the one url it contains information that could take days to find elsewhere - if you knew what to look for - all in the one place. Yes, it's long, and it's detailed - if one-liners, Twitter posts, and emotive biased ill-informed social media spin half truths and fallacies feel good stuff that fits your pre-conditioned beliefs of "what is" is your thing, then hey, this document is not for you.

If instead, you're seriously up to reading lengthy complex material, and doing the additional best practice of cross-checking on issues you were not previously aware of, in order to be convinced of xyz, then you will get something really useful out of it. It might even last quite some time as the moving dramas and hyperbole of Everything Tesla keeps passing your eyes this year.
=======================


Title: Tesla Pivots To Oblivion
May 17, 2019
by Andreas Hopf (Sweden)
Special situations, medium-term horizon, event-driven

I work on the crossroads of design, branding, consumer research and product development. Occasionally, I buy shares of companies, whose industry I understand or work in. However, I take capitalism and its machinations with the necessary spoonful of quality Swedish stone salt.

Disclosure: I am/we are long TSLA, VLKAF, MMTOF. I wrote this article myself, and it expresses my own opinions. I am not receiving compensation for it (other than from Seeking Alpha). I have no business relationship with any company whose stock is mentioned in this article.

(short extract - on topic for this thread)

Quote
Global EV market

The global market for EVs, meaning HEVs, PHEVs, BEVs and FCEVs, continues to grow at a slower pace than many optimistic analysts anticipated in recent years. The revolutionary disruption of personal transportation, assumed with certainty by many exuberant analysts, failed to occur once again, and EVs saw only 2.9% of global passenger vehicle sales in 2018. Investors concerned with the qualitative and quantitative developments of global EV markets should inform themselves at EV volumes and ICCT instead of via company affiliated blogs and fan sites.

EV sales growth only occurs in sales regions where strict governmental regulation either financially entices or legally forces EV adoption for two main reasons – citizens’ environmental concerns in California, Florida, Norway or The Netherlands on the one hand – or particulate emission reduction and future global automotive sector domination plans in China on the other. In any case, the global EV market remains artificial, with governments in control instead of market forces.

A side effect of un-coordinated governmental intervention is that it often promotes, possibly inadvertently, expensive, oversized, overweight and thus highly unsustainable BEVs, making them particularly attractive for wealthy households that often purchase EVs as a secondary or even tertiary vehicle – as a material feel-good icon that shall demonstrate their concern for the environment. However, wanting to better the world by way of oversized overweight BEVs amounts to nothing but arriving at the beach to drain the ocean with a teaspoon.

The main barriers to EV adoption, particularly in sales regions with low or no subsidies, incentives and benefits, are high price and insurance premiums, followed by range, particularly during the winter season, and the lack of ubiquitous and convenient city and roadside charging infrastructure. The existing strata of high net worth individuals in the aforementioned global growth regions are too small to effect a swift substantial fleet rotation away from ICEVs. For most consumers in those regions, used cars and low-priced ICEVs will remain the dominant vehicle type of choice, the car being the costliest discretionary purchase for most households.

The global fleet rotation, with over 1.3 billion ICEVs currently in use, will take decades. The imaginary tipping point remains chimerical.      [...]

Conclusion

This year, the final word, by courtesy of the Book of Daniel:

    "MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN"


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